My mother had her roof replaced by a very large and well known roofer in Kansas City, also has offices in Denver and Colorado Springs…Bordner These “Master” “platinum” “elite” “Angie’s List super service award” with “60,000 satisfied customers” all stars, installed a 2X2 drip edge that was too short for the gutters. For 2 years the water went behind the gutters instead of into it. This of course caused the paint to come off and rotted wood.
She called them and I met the Bordner repair guy out there and he told me they used the biggest drip edge made (2X2) and that’s all they could do. Of course I informed them they make a 2X3 and larger. He added a strip of metal in the gap to stop further damage but never fixed the damage and insists to my mom that they used the biggest made and the problem is the gutters are hung too low!! Obviously the gutters were there first and they had some kind of drip edge previously. A 2x3 Drip edge would get it.
What should we do? Sue? File BBB claim? Poor reviews on every site possible? Keep calling and insisting? Also is there fix of just extending the drip edge with a long thin piece of metal adequate or should they take it off and install the proper 2X3 Drip edge?
A roofers job is to keep the structure water- tight.
Everything below the roofing is your problem.
Heck, When I first got on this forum, Most of the roofers did NOT even install eve metal!!!
I swear i felt all alone in installing it!
Heck I just read about a roofer yesterday on this forum who thought a 2 1/2 inch face on the evedrip was way too big and he would “never” install it on a residential property…
Yep, improperly installed and unmaintained gutters rot out fascias all the time.
Without pictures, it is difficult to tell for sure. However, if the gutters are improperly installed, I don’t see how you can consider this the roofer’s issue. Theoretically, they could have installed gutter apron or even made some from a roll of flashing. However, that would be out of scope work and still not change the fact of the gutters being improperly installed. I realize you probably love your Mother and want to make sure she isn’t being mistreated. Even taking that into consideration, it doesn’t mean her gutters aren’t installed improperly.
You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.
I always use a 2 x 4 drip edge. The only problem is that the 4 inch part is on the roof side not down into the gutter. It does indeed sound like your gutters are hung too low. I don’t know of any place locally that sells over sized drip edge ( on the gutter side ) but it could be made on a brake or special ordered.
Most likely a salesman/estimator is not going to detect something like that while measuring the roof. That leaves it where the roofers who did the work would have to catch the problem and contact the boss which often times will not happen unless there is no way for them to get around it. This is especially true if they were “sub-contractors”.
At this point it sounds like the best thing to do would be replace the gutters since they have to come off anyways to replace the bad wood. They should be able to slide the backside of the new gutters under the existing drip edge.
Concerning the strip of metal they installed, that may work for a while but its not the way it should be done. Same thing with the gutters, they should not be hung too low.
Gutters should never be installed all the way up to the roof edge. If so, sliding snow & ice would wipe them out every winter. Without pics it hard to comment. However, I’ve seen this a lot the last 10 years. Two factors I’ve found in my area. The metal has changed from what it used to be & a lot of installers have changed as well. We used to use t style metal that had a 3/4’’ lip/overhang on it that was squeezed flat in the fabrication process. The manufacturer doesn’t squeeze it anymore. The other end is for some reason or another shingle installers around here anyway have stopped hanging the starter shingle & the 1st course of shingle over a 1/2’’ or 3/4’‘. Gutter & roof relation, your roof edge should align with the middle of the gutter. Never the back of the gutter. If you take a little torpedo level, put it in the center of the gutter, hold it straight up so the bubble is plumb, it should be inline/touch the roof edge/shingle. In defense of the shingle applicators, did they remove the gutters before the rip & replacement? Then remount them wrong? IDK? Another factor is that it might have always been that way? Customer’s don’t seem to notice this stuff until after they’ve shelled out $5 - $10,000. Fascia doesn’t rot out in 2 years. You’ld have to get rain everyday like the rain forest or Seattle. Lastly, but not your case. Builders have stopped using shadow board/rim board. That gives an additional 3/4’’ of inch to protect the fascia board.
Yes a metal strip will be adequate to fix the problem providing it has enough lap into the gutter and under the roof edging. We install gutters and have rolls of 3" strips for just this purpose. I call it apron extender. On some houses there are lengths of gutters 90+ feet. In order to provide proper drainage the gutter often ends up below the roof edging, especially on older homes with fascia boards out of level or sloping away from your drainage point
S.E.S., Yes a few strips of apron flashing/counter flashing will fix the leak between the gutter & fascia. But, won’t fix the rotten fascia. If someone does fix it they should go w/Azak board not natural wood since it’s a proven problem area.
[quote=“roof-lover”]A roofers job is to keep the structure water- tight.
Everything below the roofing is your problem.
Heck, When I first got on this forum, Most of the roofers did NOT even install eve metal!!!
I swear i felt all alone in installing it!
Heck I just read about a roofer yesterday on this forum who thought a 2 1/2 inch face on the evedrip was way too big and he would “never” install it on a residential property…
Yep, improperly installed and unmaintained gutters rot out fascias all the time.[/quote]
The gutters were there first and why would you put drip edge at all if nothing below the roof is your problem? Makes no sense to have a leak free roof which prevents interior wood rot and have it just rot the exterior of the house.
I run a sheet metal shop primarily for the roofing/siding industry. Although you can buy off the shelf generic flashing, most guys prefer it custom made. I’ve made it all. 1" face to 30". Just because you don’t see the flashing you need in front of you doesn’t mean you can’t get it… Oh… And please don’t tell whoever’s making it you you need it right now and will wait in the parking lot for it. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t care that much and you’ll be sitting in your truck for a long time.
The installer should’ve noticed the flashing was inadequate and brought it to the boss’ and home owners attention. This is to me what separates a pro from a hack. If the gutter was already there why would you put on a flashing that was obviously too short, knowing it would drip behind the gutter.And if you didn’t notice,refer to my second sentence.Even if you don’t have access to sheet metal shop to get a custom flashing made,you could certainly find a small roll of coil and tuck it under said flashing.
Even if it gets wrapped/buried with coverage metal it’s still going to be rotted under there. A real invitation for carpenter ants & more. They love that sweet wet pine. You don’t want the rot to spread to the rafter tails, soffet, & decking. Nip it in the bud.
If all Customers accepted the “news” of out of scope work congenially, I would agree with you. I actually agree with you anyway. Unfortunately, after getting wrung through the wringer a few times, most people adopt the expected Pavlovian response.
IMHO, while the roofer may have not been perfect in this job by identifying the problem and needed out of scope work, they certainly weren’t negligent or incompetent either. They did what they were hired to do.
Would a roofing company take pictures of the original roof and then save them for 2 years? If they did, that could establish whether they created the problem or just ignored it. Of course if they had a picture that established that they created the problem they would probably accidentally loose it, but if they had a picture that showed the old roof was the same way that would demonstrate the damage was occurring years before they put on the new roof.
If they removed a drip edge that was putting the water properly into the gutter and put one on that wasn’t, I believe they should be responsible for the rot.
Update… THREATENED AND HARASSED by Alan at Bordner Installation of Kansas City.
Spoke to Alan at Bordner and he said 3x2 drip edge is all they use and if that’s not long enough to reach the gutter then too bad. The silly thing is 3 inches would have gotten it easy so they could have flipped it over.
Anyways I informed Alan that we would be filing a BBB Claim and posting negative reviews on-line. And he said “I have a ton of information on your house. It would not be wise to slander us.” (Yes I wrote it down immediately). I took this as a threat and called him on it and he said I was threatening him. I politely hung up and called the Office and left a message with his boss (Rob). Less than an hour later I received a prank phone call from an automated website prankcall dot com is what it said at the very end. I have never received such a thing before so it is clear to me that it was Alan and this is him threatening me further and warning me of harassment to come if we file a BBB and negative reviews. Perhaps these scare tactics are why Bordner install has a perfect BBB and Super Angie award. I like to think that Alan is a bad apple in a decent company but I won’t know till/if Rob ever calls me back.
Honestly, I think you’re way out of bounds. I’m glad you’re not my Customer. From what I can tell, you didn’t have the contract with the Roofer nor did you have power of attorney from your Mother, therefore, you have no legal standing even discussing the job with the Contractor. If this is true, were I you, I’d be real careful how you proceed, you may be like the dog that caught the semi truck and then didn’t know what to do with it.
With that said, you came here for help so I’ll offer a couple of suggestions. Lose the attitude and the threats. Attempt to have a reasonable discussion of what you see as the problem (and the subsequent solution) with a higher level manager. Emphasize you’re simply wanting to make sure your elderly Mother is taken care of. No Contractor wants a story of how they took advantage of an elderly person. But just imply that as an implication, don’t explicitly threaten. Perhaps offer to meet the guy half way on paying for the fix to the problem.
Frankly, I suspect water was going behind the gutter for a lot longer than 2 years if it is thoroughly rotten before. I seriously doubt this was no issue before the roof replacement. IMHO, you’re not all the way right and possibly not all the way wrong here so it is reasonable to search for a compromised solution.
I hope for your Mother’s sake, you are able to get this taken care of. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply believe you are a bit on edge since your Mother is involved. Given the tone of your posts here, I suspect you have taken an attitude with the Contractor which may have caused them to dig in their heels and push back. Try selling them on the idea of fixing things for your Mother instead of threatening and brow beating them into doing it. Good luck.
The “Installer” did what he was hired to do, nail the roof on. The company who estimated/contracted the job made the error. If drip edge replacement was contracted, then the proper drop edge/products should have been used.
AFAICS they did neither, and it caused fascia boards to rot.
[quote=“mvanlerb”]Update… THREATENED AND HARASSED by Alan at Bordner Installation of Kansas City.
Spoke to Alan at Bordner and he said 3x2 drip edge is all they use and if that’s not long enough to reach the gutter then too bad. The silly thing is 3 inches would have gotten it easy so they could have flipped it over.
Anyways I informed Alan that we would be filing a BBB Claim and posting negative reviews on-line. And he said “I have a ton of information on your house. It would not be wise to slander us.” (Yes I wrote it down immediately). I took this as a threat and called him on it and he said I was threatening him. I politely hung up and called the Office and left a message with his boss (Rob). Less than an hour later I received a prank phone call from an automated website prankcall dot com is what it said at the very end. I have never received such a thing before so it is clear to me that it was Alan and this is him threatening me further and warning me of harassment to come if we file a BBB and negative reviews. Perhaps these scare tactics are why Bordner install has a perfect BBB and Super Angie award. I like to think that Alan is a bad apple in a decent company but I won’t know till/if Rob ever calls me back.[/quote]
I’m not a roofer, I’m a home owner, I think you should try to relax a little bit.
As far as threatening you He was replying to your threat to file with BBB and post negative reviews online.
“It would not be wise to slander us” is probably a true statement
it generally is not wise to slander people.
Slander would be making false and defamatory statements.
I would take the “I have a ton of information on your house” comment to imply that they could defend themselves from your accusations.
I would not interpret it in the sense that they “know where you live” and will come after you.
I would ask myself if I have any proof that the water has not been running behind the gutters for the last 10 years.
I seriously doubt that their good record is the result of scaring people with prank phone calls.
All the prank call did was inflame you.
I agree that is an awful co-incidence.
I’m having trouble reconciling their record with them not seeing to it that the water flowed into the gutter properly. They do siding also. Is it possible they noted the rot 2 years ago and suggested having it repaired and your Mother declined? Do you happen to have any of the paper work from 2 years ago?
I’m on edge because they won’t admit they screwed up and people on this forum seem to agree its ok to install a drip edge that’s too short for gutters. Plus they repaired the issue but not the damage caused by the issue. I also don’t like being threatened and not the type to scare easily. And yes they effectively scared my mother from BBB claim or lawsuit so my only option will be to let people know through reviews what kind of company they are. But thank you i do believe you give sound advice
Alan stated bluntly that they use 2X3 no matter what the situation. So they don’t care about seeing the water into the gutter. When i asked how he could take off a drip edge that was installed properly and replace it with one too short he asked how i knew it was installed properly to begin with and where is the proof. Of course we have none other that the house is very old and there wouldn’t be a fascia left if it had water running down it.
Either way a responsible company would have installed a proper drip edge in my opinion. Just like a reputable company would alert a homeowner of they don’t have roof vents and install proper ventilation. It’s clear to me that whatever illegal alien sub contracting crew they had working for them that day didn’t care about the drip edge and probably didn’t notice. Salesman should have caught it and they should have performed final inspection and caught it IMO. And since they fixed drip edge it tells me they knew it was a screwup which it obviously is i don’t see how these roofers say it’s not their problem. They’re the ones giving the industry a bad name
Whoa. There are a lot of FACTS missing from this rant you are on.
I don’t know how a company can obtain the type of reputation they have by performing the type of you work you say they have performed. Poor work gets spread around like a wild fire especially compared to quality work.
A fascia board isn’t going to rot out over the course of two years. What did the contract say in regards to replacing the gutter apron? Was it suggested to your mother that they do a change order and replace the metal and she denied them?
Where is the picture so we can take a look and have a good judgement?
I know for myself, we RARELY replace the gutter apron unless we are doing the gutters at the same time because MOST people do not want to pay the extra cost for something that isn’t 100% necessary.
