Building Code Roof Decking question

Fellow Roofers,

I have a job with a few hundred squares of old 3/8 inch plywood decking on 24inch centers. Of course, these roofs weren’t properly ventilated and there are two layers up there. Needless to say, it’s pretty scary walking on these roofs. You can literally hear the deck cracking when I did the adjuster walk. The deck is heavily sagged and it feels like one will fall through at any time.

Insurance company is already buying the roofs. My question is how do I get the decking replacement paid for by the insurance company? The insured has an O&L policy. Which code do I cite that says 3/8 inch decking on 24 inch centers is no longer allowed?

Also, can I argue that this roof(shingles) has been replaced at least 3 times already in the last 5 years and the decking requires replacement? I would imagine this 3/8 inch decking has been shingled around 5-7 times already?

Insurance company is sitting around 60 days already with no checks written out. I personally spent a day walking this property this week after original adjuster missed 2 buildings and the second layer of shingles(Can’t make this stuff up. Missed a whole lot more.). This will be a large claim and I am quite sure they don’t want to pay for redecking all these buildings. How do I get them to pay?

Thanks in advance…

For the whopping price of $125 or so, you can purchase an electronic copy of the International Residential Building Code book. You pick the edition. I struggle a bit to understand how anyone can be in the construction business and not own a copy of this manual. Then again, I struggle with understanding how anybody would build a roof for $185 per square. Perhaps there is some correlation, I’m not sure.

Dad,

I can get the IBC regs downloaded easy enough. I even saw them for free. I was asking for help with the logic and negotiations with the insurance company. Have you any experience with this? How/What do you say?

As far as $185 per square, that’s too rich this year. LOL. I had to walk away from a new construction contract at around $125 per square with me supplying metal and fasteners. That’s labor and materials! I was told that only money to be had was in the factory rebates.

Seriously, $140 per square for new construction is a good price where I am from. Prices have gotten so low that even I can’t compete. I have lost a few redecks this year that came in around $220 per square labor and materials. Perhaps you have a pearl of wisdom about chasing low prices? Either way, there’s still some good insurance work out there if you look for it but I did see an insurance estimate the other day paying $140 a square for architectural. They told me this was their preferred vendor price. I laughed and said thank goodness I wasn’t on their vendor list and got xactimate pricing with my supplemental.

Why don’t you look at Chapter 8 of the code book, Table R802.4 and 802.5. I’m guessing the ceiling joist spacing is not allowed with the spans/materials you are looking at. The other applicable code would be R905.2.1 which states “Asphalt shingles shall be fastened to solidly sheathed decks.” What you described hardly complies to R905.2.1.

If the insurance won’t pay for it, I’d take it to the HO. I don’t see how you can warranty a roof installed with the conditions you described. I also would never put one of our roof crews at risk by attempting an install where the framing was in the condition you described.

I don’t know about the pricing, perhaps it is the market you are working in. I don’t think we’ve ever done a job period for as low as $220 per square, even for 20 year 3 tab. Based upon what I’ve read about your mind set, I doubt my ability to provide you with any “pearls of wisdom” that would help you.

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"As far as $185 per square, that’s too rich this year. LOL. I had to walk away from a new construction contract at around $125 per square with me supplying metal and fasteners. That’s labor and materials! I was told that only money to be had was in the factory rebates.

Seriously, $140 per square for new construction is a good price where I am from. Prices have gotten so low that even I can’t compete. I have lost a few redecks this year that came in around $220 per square labor and materials. Perhaps you have a pearl of wisdom about chasing low prices?"

Keep it to yourself please!
[attachment=0]Client Base.jpg[/attachment]
This might even explain why many of my answers here are non-sensical, and why I have a hard time wrapping my mind around some of the prices I see posted here and elsewhere.

famous, you complaining about low prices makes about as much sense as a drunk complaining about free beer.

The prices in the Okie state are going even lower. Keep that crap in the 918 and hopefully it stays in the 918. Damn $220 for a redeck is just insane.Roofing in the 918 is no way a profitable trade anymore.

Roofmaster,

Is there room up there in 417 land for me? I have been eyeing the 501 and 479. Just got my license there. FYI FWIW, I am not BSing about redeck prices down here. Getting real frustrating. Every roof has 3-4 companies fighting over them. Me and another were fighting tooth and nail over same jobs. I was dropping down price to beat him everytime. He finally got down below my cost and I let him “Win”. He told customer he was doing it just to keep crew busy.

I went to the 405 and got my butt handed to me. These homeowners are greasy. HOs were actually telling my salesmen they wanted the deductible paid and HO got to keep the RCV checks! Signs posted everywhere: “We pay you $1,000 cash for your roof” plus they are paying deductibles. We had 10 contracts first weekend and only ended up doing 2! Not worth the fight! Prices at least 20% higher too for materials.

This is hilarious coming from you famous. Why don’t you go look some of your own posts here where you lectured everyone on the benefits of being the lowest price contractor? The homeowners were greasy? LMAO!!!

Please give me that lecture again famous, perhaps it will sink in this time.

[quote=“famous”]Roofmaster,

Is there room up there in 417 land for me? I have been eyeing the 501 and 479. Just got my license there. FYI FWIW, I am not BSing about redeck prices down here. Getting real frustrating. Every roof has 3-4 companies fighting over them. Me and another were fighting tooth and nail over same jobs. I was dropping down price to beat him everytime. He finally got down below my cost and I let him “Win”. He told customer he was doing it just to keep crew busy.

I went to the 405 and got my butt handed to me. These homeowners are greasy. HOs were actually telling my salesmen they wanted the deductible paid and HO got to keep the RCV checks! Signs posted everywhere: “We pay you $1,000 cash for your roof” plus they are paying deductibles. We had 10 contracts first weekend and only ended up doing 2! Not worth the fight! Prices at least 20% higher too for materials.[/quote]

Dad,

Nothing wrong being the lowest price contractor as long as you are making good profit. The obverse of this argument also rings true: Nothing wrong being the highest priced contractor as long as you are making good profits. The problem with most people is that they correlate prices with profits which isn’t a truism.

I have this argument all the time with sales staff who don’t want to work the bad parts of town and instead concentrate on large roofs in newer neighborhoods. The margins are better on the small houses because less competition.

Re IRC.Learn it and use it.If the policy has O/L , just get your info to desk adjusters and make sure they UNDERSTAND exactly what it means.Generally, the more they talk about their policies for paying the more you need the wading boots for their BS.
The decking must be able to have a new roofing system applied or you have to replace it.

Never trust an adjuster to tell you what is true.

Re: what you are doing for profits.I think you may need to move.There are lots of places where the roofing biz is not so competitive.(Albany and Binghampton, NY ? CAT 5 yesterday)

Getting back to the pricing ,write up the RTA(real ,true,and accurate)bid with your overhead and profit included and ask the owner to get involved.They can use who they choose and the insurance company 'should ’ pay.Get the agent involved too!That premium may go away if he doesn’t help his customers.
One last thing
Long ago I learned business model based on ELF
If it doesn’t comply,I don’t need it.

Easy (the more you know makes it easier)
Lucrative (it has to be very profitable)
Fun (the customer and you should get along well)

Carolina,

Thanks for the reply and response. I think you are right about moving to avoid competition. Wife and I just listed everything for sale and will seriously consider a move. The guys already said they go where I go so who knows.

Things in Tulsa got real slow and now we have started traveling for large commercials. Margins aren’t as great but man the square counts make up for it. If the stories are true what you roofers on this board say then I need to move. I have a buddy/client that tells me he gets $14 per square labor price on his large new construction Apartments in Texas! I don’t know how it is possible but he says his subs show up with 12-20 men and knock out hundreds of squares a day. I kind of want to see it…

3/8 3 ply plywood has never been to any code on 24 inch centers. if you install a roof on that you can be held liable for removal of the old plywood and installing 5/8 struct1 along with the new roof after you screw up and install a roof on 3/8. do it right or do not do it.

Famous…

Have you moved out of Tulsa yet? Noticed last summer that your office was in the little strip of offices next to one of my State Farm agents that sends me referrals. I also noticed that I haven’t had the pleasure of bidding against you in a long time.

Folks… Don’t let him fool you. The market in Tulsa is just fine, and stable. As long as your company has a reputation that allows you to demand a higher price, and you back it up with quality work, then you stay busy. There hasn’t been a week go by since feb of 2010 (when we had a blizzard. 24" of snow on the ground once that melted, we were back on track) that we do no less than 5 residential roofs per week, every week, year round. In the spring and summer, we average 12-15 roofs per week minimum, plus big commercial jobs at the same time.

OKC metro had a great storm last year too, and we cleaned house in our Edmond office. Our average price for a single layer rip was over $275 a square the whole storm.

And rednecks for $225? We don’t even do single layers for $225. I just did 3 houses in Claremore that were new construction from a fire, and I got $240 plus $5 a foot for gutters. And yea, we own gutter machines too, it doesn’t cost us $3 a foot to use a sub like most roofers.

Anyway, it’s mid feb here and cold as snot, but we are still truckin. Business is great, everyone in this area knows us and loves us. It’s all referral based from happy customers, and insurance companies that send us deal after deal.

Best of luck to you buddy! Don’t let the Golden Driller hit you on the ass on your way out of town!

This topic would be great for the next reality TV show. “Price Wars” lol

Jesus… I am reading all of these prices comments, and cannot believe how you guys survive down there in the USA…?
Do you have restoration companies down there? These are clean up companies that the insurance companies use here to go in and contract out all of the repairs and cleaning up for the claims, and I’ve got a few contracts with some here, and I do not even advertise anymore, and all of the insurance jobs we do, are quoted about 30% higher than a average quote.
If I were called for a 12x12 tarp it’s $200, but when I do the same for my insurance contract, it’s $350, or a 50 bundle, 4/12 gable, just a basic… Would be about $3,500 all in, waste removal too, but for the insurance contract it’s around $5,000! And there is not competition… We sign the contract, and very,very rarely, the insurance company will call for a second quote, but we end up getting the job anyways…
It sounds like hell down there…