Contract vs. Work Delivered

Roofing/Construction Questions
1

Apologies in advance if you guys hate homeowner questions around here. :slight_smile:

Had a new roof installed today, and i’m troubled that some of the techniques and materials specified on the contract were not delivered on-site. Primarily 3 things:

  1. Hand nailing vs air nailing.

Contract states shingles will be applied with 5 “hand-nailed” galvanized roofing nails per shingle. However, i noticed the guys are air-nailing. I question one of the workers on site and he tells me this is the way they always do it, and that he’d take 6 nails with a nail gun over 4 hand-nailed nails any day. I call the owner (the guy who wrote the contract) and leave a message and when he calls me back and I ask him why they are air nailing when the contract says “hand nailed” and he immediately says that they should be hand-nailing the job and he’ll call the foreman right away.

But then he calls me back and tells me the contract was in error and his head roofing guy had always spec’d the job for air nails w/ 7 nails per shingle (note that his worker just told me 6) because it will be better for wind resistance on our two-story house. I smell bullshit and when I explain that i’m upset about hearing different things from him and his employees at different times, he gets indignant because he thinks i’m accusing him of being a “flim flam artist”. He also says his crew hand nails all the time (despite that his worker tells me otherwise).

But what can I do? The roof is 75% done at that point, so there’s no choice but to continue. So, I let them finish the job. I’m not intending this to be another hand-nailing vs. air-nailing and i’m convinced that if the guy running the nailer (and it was only ONE guy using the nailer) knows what he’s doing he can probably do just as good a job as a crew with hammers. And honestly, if he hadn’t written “hand nailed” on the contract I wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow but I guess when I sign a written contract for several thousands of dollars ($12K total, including roofing and siding my garage) I expect the words on the contract to mean something.

  1. Cutting 25-year three-tabs for ridge caps.

The contract states all surfaces will be covered with limited-lifetime-warranty architectural shingles. However, they are using 25-year 3-tab shingles to cut down for ridge caps. I question the owner about this and he says it’s standard practice and when I ask him about warranty issues he says “absolutely none” He says the pre-formed caps are too expensive and nobody wants to pay for them, and again I point out that the contract should say that.

  1. 15# felt vs. 30# felt.

Contract says 30# felt, but the rolls on site are clearly marked 15. I haven’t had a chance to tell the contractor about this one, but i’m curious what story he’s going to come up with that 15# felt is somehow better for my roof.

They’re supposed to start on the garage on Monday, and they asked me if I wanted it hand-nailed or air-nailed. I told them to continue as they were (if they don’t normally hand-nail, I don’t want them practicing on my garage).

What should I do? Forget about it and move on? Ask for a partial refund? Tell them to pick up their stuff and don’t come back? The contractor in question is highly highly rated on Angie’s list, at the very least I intend on documenting my experience there.

2

If the contract says hand nailed it should be hand nailed, properly applied with a nail gun will be fine with no issues but that isn’t the point.

3-tabs for cap is common practice for most, the only real issue here is how well the color matches.
It depends on how the contract reads, I suspect it doesn’t specify the cap type.

Once the roof is applied the difference between 15# & 30# is trivial, 30# is 2x as thick as 15# and costs 2x as much.
30# is a better product so if the contract specifies 30# you should be getting 30# felt.

It sounds like your typical roof but if premium items & techniques were written in the contract and not done/used IMO you should get some kind of kickback.

Asking to have to roof redone would be rather extreme if it is otherwise done correctly.

Sounds shady to me too…

3

Sorry to hear about your dilemma. Unfortunately this happens all to often. Some contractors contract isn’t worth the piece of paper its written on. To me a contract is a contract. Do what is says nothing more, nothing less. I bet if your contract states 30 squares and it takes him 40 squares of roofing you can bet that he will not be the one eating that 10 squares. This is what I would do.

  1. A roof that is hand nailed can have just as much nails that are over driven or under driven. Although it is much more difficult to not nail correctly when you are hand nailing conversely air driven nails can be driven correctly but it takes diligence to keep the correct air pressure coming to the gun as the day progresses. If there is more then 1 person using the compressor the difficulty is elevated. The person operating the gun almost never puts every nail where its supposed to go but the same can be said for hand nailing (although much less common). I have done both and hand nailing for me anyway is more enjoyable. This is what I would do. I would ask the owner what the difference in the price per square for hand nailing vs. air nailing. If he tells you there isn’t he is flat out lying to you. I have charged 25%-50% more for hand nailing just because no one can match the speed of an air gun. Thus profitability is much less.

  2. Using a 25 year shingle on lifetime roof for anything but a starter is just wrong. The roof is only as strong as its weakest link and the hip/ridge portion of the roof is that weakest link. To me its not a lifetime roof anymore its a 25 year roof. Period. Some on here will disagree with me and that’s OK. Just because it standard practice doesn’t meant that’s it right. I would demand to have the shingle rep inspect the roof and say in writing that its OK for a 25 year shingle to be installed on your lifetime shingle roof and that your roof was put on correctly. Nailing pattern could also be a way out. I would not budge on this as these could be a way out for the shingle manufacture to deny coverage should you need to file a warranty claim down the road. I would also deduct the difference from what the contract states and what was actually installed. This can be substantial amount of money.

  3. In my opinion unless the roof is steep. 15 lb felt is OK. 30 lb is twice as expensive as the 15 rolls. Depending on the size of the roof this can add up considerably. I would call the place where he got the materials and ask what the difference is then multiply that by the total squares then deduct that from the total. The labor is exactly the same weather its a 15 lb roll or 30 lb roll. A 15 lb roll will cover twice the amount of squares as a 30 lb roll. 4 squares vs. 2 squares

Just imagine what else is going on that you don’t know about yet. What he hasn’t done that he says he did.

One of the services that I offer is an inspection after a different contractor has installed the roof for this very reason. Unfortunately for you this is why I offer this service. I hope you have someone in your area that offers it as most homeowners will not get on their roofs. Knowing this, some roofing contractors try to cut corners. Good Luck.

4

Thank you both for your thoughtful responses. It really helped me clear my head on the issues at hand.

To give him the benefit of the doubt, i’m not convinced the contractor was being deliberately deceptive (although it’s pretty clear to me that he flat-out lied to me when he claimed using the 25-year product had no effect on the warranty of my “limited lifetime” warranty). I more inclined to believe that the guy making up the contracts is completely out of touch with the people doing the work. He claims not to use subcontractors, but the name on the vans that showed up to do the work was not the name of the company I hired.

I feel like I was quoted a “premium” roofing job, and received the “average” job – although it very well may still be quality work. Rather than haggling over a discount, i’m really liking the idea of withholding the final payment (33%) pending an inspection from the shingle manufacturer, if such a thing is possible. If they say the job was done right, then i’m happy to pay the bill in full. Of course, i’m nearly certain this is something he can’t deliver, if only because of the 25 year ridge caps.

5

Your holding a final payment of 33% ? So your saying you put a down payment of 67% ? Ouch !!! So how did they manage to convince you to do that ??

As far as the topic I feel both replies from Axiom and Roofpitch are dead on. If something is on your contract agreement then all written proposed repairs should be installed per signed contract. Unfortunately the sales person who met you and presented himself as an affiliate of the company you hired will sometimes say and agree to whatever it takes to have your signature ensuring him a commission.

Maybe the crew who installed your roof was completely innocent. Most people work days so maybe someone was banking on you not being there during the installation and would never know otherwise. I might, and thats a huge might understand a miscommunication on something less critical, but missing the specs with the installation of 30lb felt and handnailing is some serious and irresponsible actions.Also they do make a 30 year 3 tab however the color match from crossing manufacturers might be an issue.

Are you sure they didn’t use 2 courses of #15lb felt ? (15lb + 15lb = 30lb)

Also do you really really know and understand your “Limited Lifetime” manufacture warranty ? Its “Limited” alright, very “Limited”.

6

Like Roofmaster said the “lifetime limited” is not what it sounds. Your roof will still need to be replaced in 20-30 years no matter what the wrappers on the shingles say.

7

It would be easy for me to jump on the bandwagon of “have mercy on the poor old roofers”.

However, some real injustices have been done to you by this company and they will NEVER change or get any better unless they have to suffer some kind of consequence.

If your contract says hand nailed, #30 felt and a lifetime roof then that is what you should have gotten.

In addition to the above you were flat out lied to on more than one occasion. This was nothing more than a feeble attempt by them to cover their own arses.

When all was said and done you got less of a roofing job than was promised and contracted.

In my opinion if you got less then you should pay less.

Exactly how much less, I would not care to give an opinion on. That is for you and them to work out.

With a few pics of the #15 felt instead of #30, the roofer using a gun instead of hand nailing and of the 25 yr. cap that is supposed to be lifetime you would have an open and shut case of them violating the contract in 3 seperate manners on the same job. Then there is the lie about having their own employees when I can tell from HERE that it was a subcontract crew.

Unfortunately most of todays so called roofing companies do nothing more than push papers and what happened in your case has become all too common. In fact, it has become so common that after over a quarter of a century of personally replacing roofs, In the last 5 years I have made my living solely and entirely from repairing roofs installed by others.

8

Steve, where are you located? It sounds like some of the guys around here that I know of.

9

I don’t feel I was promoting the poor roofer bandwagon. If a roofer is hired and is given a job sheet detailing the job and they do what is on the job sheet then they did their job. If nothing was on the job sheet about handnailing, 30lb felt or other issues the OP is questioning then how can it be that roofers problem ?

If the roofers do what is required on a spec aheet then it falls on the contractor and IMO the sales persons actions and comments should be under the microscope as well.

With this situation the blame game between the contractor, salesman and roofer and homeowner can be played for eternity.The contractor can blame the roofer and salesman, the salesman can blame the homeowner and the roofer can blame the salesman and contractor and the homeowner can blame all 3.

10

To clarify a few things and answer questions:

I don’t blame the crew on site for anything. I suspect they are doing exactly the job they were told to do, and I have no reason to believe they’re not doing it well.

I only have 33% cash down on the job at the moment. There is another 33% supposedly due when the job is underway but he hasn’t asked for that yet. I suspect he might before they finish. The final 33% is due on completion of local code inspection. He’s not getting another cent from me until we have resolution on these issues.

I am in suburban Chicago (Brookfield, the contractor is a couple of towns to the north)

The resolution will undoubtedly be a matter of a cash discount, because there really aren’t any other alternatives. I can’t make him give me the product he described on the contract at this point, so what I have to do is figure out how much it’s all worth to me.

Thanks again, and I’ll try to come back and let you all know how it was resolved in the end.

-Steve

P.S. I don’t want to sound like i’m nitpicking at this point, but as you can imagine i’m ultra-sensitive to wondering where else corners have been cut. I noted that the contract specified galvanized nails. The roofers are using “Yellow Zinc Chromated” roofing nails (from X-Cell), and while they’re not what I think of when someone says ‘galvanized’ I suppose being zinc plated they meet the basic definition of galvanized. Is this a quality product? Or another corner cut?

11

[quote=“Steve16823”]To clarify a few things and answer questions:

I don’t blame the crew on site for anything. I suspect they are doing exactly the job they were told to do, and I have no reason to believe they’re not doing it well.

I only have 33% cash down on the job at the moment. There is another 33% supposedly due when the job is underway but he hasn’t asked for that yet. I suspect he might before they finish. The final 33% is due on completion of local code inspection. He’s not getting another cent from me until we have resolution on these issues.

I am in suburban Chicago (Brookfield, the contractor is a couple of towns to the north)

The resolution will undoubtedly be a matter of a cash discount, because there really aren’t any other alternatives. I can’t make him give me the product he described on the contract at this point, so what I have to do is figure out how much it’s all worth to me.

Thanks again, and I’ll try to come back and let you all know how it was resolved in the end.

-Steve

P.S. I don’t want to sound like i’m nitpicking at this point, but as you can imagine i’m ultra-sensitive to wondering where else corners have been cut. I noted that the contract specified galvanized nails. The roofers are using “Yellow Zinc Chromated” roofing nails (from X-Cell), and while they’re not what I think of when someone says ‘galvanized’ I suppose being zinc plated they meet the basic definition of galvanized. Is this a quality product? Or another corner cut?[/quote]

The standard nails the vast majority use are electro-galvanized coil roofing nails, the type you have.

You can get coil roofing nails in hot dipped galvanized which is a much better nail but costs well over 10x as much.
While these are a much better nail they really aren’t needed for most roofing situations.

The roofing crew doesn’t sound like the problem.
It sounds like the salesmen made a bunch of promises he had no intention of keeping.
I can’t speak for others but I charge at least 25% more for labor to hand nail a roof.

12

The fun continues this morning. They started tearing into the detached garage for the residing and reroof and I caught them replacing the bottom 24" of backer board with new OSB instead of ripping it all down to the studs and replacing it all with OSB per the contract (the existing backing board is gypsum).

I corrected them, but I shouldn’t have to take a day off work to watch these guys to make sure I get the job I paid for.

I’m highly, highly pissed.

13

I wasn’t calling anyone out for anything in my reply!

The BUSINESS that was hired is responsible for ALL of the above mentioned things. It is on them to ensure that they hire quality people for all positions, train them up as they go along and see to it that everything is done properly and profesionally every step of the way.

The salesman should not be saying one thing and then the project manager not knowing anything about it.

The project manager is supposed to relay ALL special instructions to the crew leader/sub contractor whichever is the case.

When a client is trying to bring ANYTHING to the attention of ANYONE involved in the process they should be all ears and responsive. Not combative, defensive and contradictory.

14

33%, 33%, 33% , who is eating 1% ?

As Tinner would say, Sounds like you have some “Jack legged” Crews doing your repairs.

15

I agree with LuckyChucky on x2. A lack of communication or management is no excuse. Yes it does happen to all of us however.

A contract is a contract for a really good reason! Owners decide on a company based on a proposal turned contract. You decided to choose this company to do repairs on your property based on the scope of work listed (hand nail, felt weight), price, and feedback from the representative who delivered the proposal/contract.

A deviation from the signed contract is not delivering as promised. The excuse does not matter (intentionally to save money or mis communication to crews).

[statement:] Would you have chosen this contractor among competitors had they listed 15# and cinematic nail guns at the same contract amount? …this smells like monkey business to me.

16

Another fishy thing I’ve noticed is that the copy of the contract he submitted with the building permit has changed from the contract I signed. Mostly there are details added (the actual brand/type of shingle used) but strangely he deleted a few things (for example, the installation of a new steel utility door on the garage) and the signature on the contract is not mine or has been forged. He did the steel door and other work, so i’m not sure why it was deleted from the building permit.

Final code inspection is Tuesday. I’ve e-mailed the contractor and demanded a $1000 discount (on a $12K roofing and siding job) to compensate for the unauthorized changes of air nailing and 15# felt. Primarily I am basing this on the $7000 fraction of the job that was the house roof. I personally think this is extremely fair and I could have and should have asked for more, but i’m not interested in being greedy.

I contacted the shingle manufacturer and they told me that the 25 year shingles are perfectly acceptable as ridge caps on the limited-lifetime roof and will not impact their warranty. So apparently this is not an issue.

Cheers,

Steve