Just re-roofed, have leaks, need advice

Roofing/Construction Questions
1

I live in MA, in a 1960 “multi”-style house. Basically the roof line goes up from left or right edge to center, with a 2’ drip edge on each end. Each side of the roof is about 9 squares. The house is a rectangle, with a small 12x12 additional section behind the left side. Unfortunately, the roof pitch is barely code (1-4), and a bit below code on the left side (apparently the original owner wanted his living room 2’ bigger, so they made the roof shallower rather than raising the peak :-{ ). It’s also badly insulated in places. Under the cathedral (left side) there’s only a few inches of aluminum-foil-bagged-fluff. On the right side it varies from R-13 to R-30 (I did what I could, but there isn’t enough space to add much in many places.

To be honest, it almost seems like the roof was designed for ice-dams, as the poor insulation heats the bottom of the snow which runs down to the overhang (which is cold) and promptly freezes.

As you may guess, I’ve had problems with ice-dams. However, last year, when it was time to re-roof, I hired a person who had been a friend for several years and has run his own successful roofing company for even longer. We discussed what to do, and ended up putting on architectural shingles, and 12’ of ice/water barrier on one side, and 9’ on the other. He also did a thorough job sealing around my chimney (on the left side). I thought my problems were over for good.

The results have been mixed. Parts of the roof that used to give me problems (left side) stayed dry, but other parts have had significant seepage/leakage. I had significant seepage on the right side (over bedrooms, where it’s better insulated), and some leaking in the left rear section. The latter is particularly surprising because it’s an add-on with it’s own, heavily insulated (R30) attic. Admittedly when I cleared the snow on the right side, I found 2-3" of water under it, but in the left rear I found only about 1/2", maybe less. I also got some drips into my (left side) living room half-way up the roof. In the past, I’ve seen this just before I replace the roof but not after. (I’ve been here > 20 years and this was my 2nd roof replacement). So getting this leakage was a real surprise.

On one hand, I don’t think the contractor did a shoddy job, and we’re both scratching our heads as to why there were so many leaks. (especially as I noticed his crew used what looked like staple guns? So the I/W barrier shouldn’t have been punctured?). He said he’s seeing this at other jobs he did, and thinks that because I/W barrier got so expensive, they also don’t make it as well. I don’t have an opinion. The only other time I had water leaking in on the right side of my house, the assumption was that the I/W barrier failed, and I paid to have the bottom 6’ redone (I/W Barrier and shingles), and that fixed it, but that was on a 10-year-old roof, not a new one.

He’s offered to comp me the labor for whatever solution we agree on. He’s leaning toward ice wires, I’m leaning toward metal roof flashing (or as I call it, aluminum Ice/Water barrier), as I’d prefer a passive solution. Also, most of the problems appear to happen in the few feet above the drip edge so if I can cover the bottom 6-8’ of the roof on both sides with aluminum, I’d like to think that the water buildup will stay on top of the barrier. (Although, the pitch may not be sufficient for the snow/ice to slide off). Another concern is that there’s a 1-level attached garage to the right side of the house (with sufficiently pitched roofs, front-to-back) so I don’t know if it’s bad if the snow/ice starts sliding off the main roof onto the garage roof.

I’ve also considered asking him to rip up the bottom 8’ on both sides and try again, but that would imply that he somehow did it wrong on both sides, (and will do it better the 2nd time) which I’m not sure is the case. I mean, on the right side, the I/WB was laid -over- the old one (from the repair I mentioned), and it STILL wasn’t sufficient to keep from ruining part of an interior wall. Go figure?

So basically I’m looking for ideas/suggestions, etc. I don’t want to “go after” the contractor, I want to work with him to get the right solution. My goal is simply to have a dry house.

Thanks in advance
/j

2

Sounds like a problem with the design of the house, insulation, ventilation, and the ability to get water to run off of the roof.

It is NOT a roofing related issue, nor is it the roofers fault, or problem.

there is ice and water shield installed, and shingles installed. neither of these items are a waterproof barrier that stop water from entering the house. its a precautionary item, and sort of a “band aid” to a poorly designed house.

are there gutters trapping ice at the eves?

do you have any pictures of the house/roofline? (a google or bing satellite view/bird’s eye view will help if you dont have any good pics)

i understand how you feel right now “i got a new roof dagnabbit, and now its leakin!” and i see that you are reacting properly by not bashing the roofer, so thats good, and coming here was a great idea… but we need more info. you also said that your roof is a 1-4 but im not sure what you mean. roofing pitch is usually measured in rise of 12" so it could be a 4:12 pitch. if so, thats not steep at all, but plenty steep for shingles.

please provide some pictures and more details of the roof, and im sure someone here can help come up with an acceptable solution… other than re-framing the whole roof. lol

3

After reading your post the roofer seems to have installed adequate ice and water shield throughout the roof system.
The cathedral ceiling is always a red flag because of the lack of ventilation. In snow country 2 x 12 rafters are right on the edge of being able to perform adequately with building code R factor and 1 inch airspace.

A cathedral ceiling also called a hot roof needs to have adequate ventilation between the sheathing and the insulation which will be called out typically as one-inch. Nowhere in your post that I see is ventilation talked about.
Most of the leak problems may be caused from condensation. Staple guns are not used in residential roofing or acceptable by code. If staple guns were used on your roof it’s very easy to find out by lifting one tab of a shingle. As the previous post stated please post pictures or PM one of us so we can shoot it with a satellite.

4

It should also be noted that is very important to have the I&W shield installed properly. overhanging facia with drip edge over it. We are in Massachusetts and none of our roofs under warranty have leaked because of this method.

5

Hi - thanks for all the interest and responses. It will take me a couple of days to get pics, but not sure what you will see now. Roof is dry. (Pic from google isn’t too helpful, too many trees).

No gutters, yes on drip edges. pitch is nominally 4:12 except the left side is a little LESS than that (less steep). Cathedral rafters are 2x6 (really), and the only insulation is the original stuff: fluff in foil bags (or in some places, next to nothing).

I/W shield goes to the edge of the roof, which overhangs the facia by 2’.

Ventilation: I have a good ridge vent and good soffit vents. A few (3) of the bays on the left (cathedral) side have raised vents (protrude out of roof) 1/2 way up. (although he replaced the old molded plastic ones with aluminum ones that were crushed by the snow). Attic also has a big 3’ x3’ vent on the back near the center. (“gable” vent?)

I’m not looking to move, or rebuild the house. I’ve been here over 20 years and we don’t have problems every year, but I’d like to not have them at all (or do whatever else I can do minimize them).

I’m not trying to overreact, but the roofer and I both thought 9-12’ of I/W shield would be a slam dunk, and now I’m having problems in parts of the roof that were ok for the last 2 decades.

Stormer - could you explain a bit more about condensation? That might explain the drip from further up (but not the ounces coming in at the bottom).

Thanks guys - hope this helps. Keep the comments coming.
/j

6

Jeff,

You mentioned new I/w barrier was laid over the old one? That’s not really kosher. You should have decking, I/W barrier, felt paper, and shingles. Lots of guys will try to skip the felt paper but it is needed in my opinion.

Also, you stated roof has always leaked? Did the new guy change out the bad decking and fascia? I call BS if he said it wasn’t needed because 20+ years of roof leaks cause damage. If you didn’t tear off the old I/W barrier then how can you be certain the decking is OK?

I too also suspect ventilation. Ventilation and insulation are different issues. Good venting makes up for a multitude of other issues.

7

When the roof was done last summer, they tore off EVERYTHING down to the roof boards. Except that they left the recently (Within the last 5 years) put down 6’ of I/W barrier on the right side because it was still stuck down very well and they said it would be better to go over it as pulling it up would leave a sticky mess that would be hard to work with, and leaving it would give me -more- protection. So yes, they didn’t inspect the roof boards under the I/W barrier, but on that whole side of the roof, only one other board needed replacement and that was iffy. I saw the roof boards when the repair was done and they looked ok. The roof boards are 1" thick, BTW.

They did use a layer of felt paper as well.

The ridge and soffit vents are clear everywhere. So if that’s what you mean by ventilation it should be ok. (although, the ridge vents do get buried under snow)

We didn’t replace any fascia this time (it all looked good), but much of it was replaced last time.

hth
/j

8

Guys. I do appreciate the input so far. I get that the roof/house design has always been flawed, and indeed we’ve had these problems from time-to-time before. Perhaps I was optimistic to believe that a properly done roof + extra I/W Barrier would reduce the problems significantly, and I get that now too.

What I really want to figure out is whether there’s anything else I can do to reduce the chances of water damage from ice dams. I’m getting a little old to shovel the roof after every storm. I’m committed to doing so for the rest of this season, but if there’s anything I can add/change to reduce future risk, I want to do it. I also need to -not- spend $ on solutions that won’t help 8-}.

Again, I appreciate all your comments. Thanks!
/j

9

Jeff,

If ice dams are really the problem, then they are real easy to prevent with a little work. Before every snowfall, throw some ice melt on your roof! I know it’s a terrible idea but it works. You can wait for it to snow and go out there with a garden hose you keep inside and a spray nozzle and wash off the snow from the lowest to highest part of the roof. Problem solved.

Option 3: The best no reroof option but costs around $300. Go to home depot/lowes and rent an insulation blower and buy 10-15 bags of blow-in. Generously cover and insulate exposed/lightly insulated areas.

Option 4: Buy a power exhaust ventilator that is switch controlled and install in attic. Turn on all winter long.

Option 5: You have bathroom or dryer exhaust in attic

10

It seems like a hard home improvement job, but really, roof construction requires the same thing every time…

11

FAMOUS> Before every snowfall, throw some ice melt on your roof! I know it’s a terrible idea but it works. You can wait for it to snow and go out there with a garden hose you keep inside and a spray nozzle and wash off the snow from the lowest to highest part of the roof. Problem solved.

ME> Well yes, but I have over 65’ of roofline. So to spread up 6’ (4’ roof, 2’ overhang) means spreading or washing over 400 sq ft. Clearing 9" of snow with a garden hose seems like it will take a while

FAMOUS> Option 3: The best no reroof option but costs around $300. Go to home depot/lowes and rent an insulation blower and buy 10-15 bags of blow-in. Generously cover and insulate exposed/lightly insulated areas.

ME> Thanks, but I wouldn’t know where to put it. My attic consists of 3 sections:

  1. normal crawl-space: I recently had another layer put in here, it’s at least R-20 and > R-30 in most of it. (back room also has R-30 - and it didn’t help!)

  2. floored attic: The 2x6 space under the floor has R-13, not sure what else I can do

  3. inside 2x6 cathedral ceiling (30’ from top to bottom). What’s there is there. I suppose I could pull the (35’ of) facia boards and try to pull out what’s there, and pull through new R-13, but that’s a major project, and not a winter project.

Honestly, if I could insulate better I would.

FAMOUS> Option 4: Buy a power exhaust ventilator that is switch controlled and install in attic. Turn on all winter long.

ME> Interesting idea, but it won’t affect the back room which was 1/2 my problem.

FAMOUS> Option 5: You have bathroom or dryer exhaust in attic.

ME> Don’t understand #5. My bathrooms DO exhaust into the attic, but right next to the 3’ x 3x gable vent.

Sorry, I thought my original post was too long so I didn’t add all these details at first. I appreciate the suggestions and wish they could work for me.

/j

12

Jeff,

Bathroom exhaust may actually be your problem. New code requires bathroom exhaust fans be vented outside the attic either through the roof or through the soffits. Do you regularly use the exhaust when showering? If so, don’t! Do your leaks happen around where the bathroom vents?

Hang out in your attic and verify where the leaks happen. Get a thermometer and check your attic temp at night compared to outside air temps. They should be real close. Also, confirm dryer vent exits through wall. Next, check your HOT Plumbing vents from HW Tank and Heater. Are they well connected or did some idiot loosen them during roofing? Is your wife running lots of humidifiers in the house? Take a sheet of copy paper or a cigar and see if your gable vents are working. Just my thoughts…

13

Hi,

I thought my problems were over for good.

14

Hi Famous - As I mentioned, the bathroom vents are near where the roof peaks, in the back, at least 25’ away from any leaks (also, the humidity would have to travel “down” rather than out the 9 sq ft gable vent which is about 5’ away from the vents). I do know where the leaks happen, I can see them in the attic. Also, 1/2 my leaks were in the back section, which is isolated from the rest of the house (and so can’t be affected by the exhaust vents).

The gable vent is a 3’ x 3’ hole with screening over it. It exhausts the bathrooms just fine. (Honestly, I’ve had this discussion with many contractors, and once they look and see how close the exhausts are to the huge vent, they admit that connecting the exhausts out the wall probably won’t change anything).

However, since we run a humidifier, and, as I mentioned, the attic insulation isn’t great in some places, I’m sure some humid air gets into the attic from below. One solution is to turn the humidifier down/off, but I’m trying to find a solution that doesn’t compromise my health (my sinuses don’t take well to low humidity).

My HW Tank is vented with a continuous metal sleeve to the top of my chimney. My furnace is direct-vented at ground level.

I think the problems are due to

-poor insulation in some parts of the attic floor

-ridge vents blocked by snow, (decreases ventilation, despite the gable vent)

-shallow roof pitch. (degrades ventilation, drainage, etc).

However, I can’t improve the insulation everywhere, I don’t want to shovel my ridge vents after every storm, and I don’t want to rebuild my roof. 8-}

I understand that if all was done properly I wouldn’t have any problems, and in an ideal situation you fix the design rather than work around it, but that doesn’t help me. Given an imperfect design, I’m trying to figure out what I can do to incrementally improve the solution. For example, is the metal flashing worth installing?

Thanks very much, I appreciate your interest and patience.
/j

15

Here are some pictures

http://www.roofing.com/images/topics/10653/img_1297867194.jpg

http://www.roofing.com/images/topics/10653/img_1297867236.jpg

16

can you access the pics?

what about putting rolled roofing across the bottom of the roof (half-lap?)

17

Can’t see the pics. Best option without pics is to move. Seriously, install a vapor barrier under your existing insulation. Mostly pure labor costs. Put an ad on craigslist an find someone to sweep, pull up, or use a leaf blower to move insulation. Install vapor barrier and place insulation ABOVE vapor barrier. Might as well rent a blower from Lowes/Home Depot and blow a few bags in as well. Machine is free rental if you purchase 7 bags.

You could pay some unemployed construction worker(a good one) like $300 cash or a hobo(not advisable) like $100. Whatever you do, provide goggles, gloves, respirator, and TYVEK!!! It’s the right thing to do!

Done right, your problem is solved. Ice dams are not a roofing problem per se. Neither are condensation issues a roofing problem.

Let’s say you are a total cheapo and really want to save money. Put on a coat and turn your thermostat down to 45 degrees. I guarantee your great grandpa didn’t have these problems. His wife was more of a man than us…

18

Famous - those are great suggestions for someone else, I think. For my roof I have 4 sections

  1. normal crawl-space: Vapor barrier on the bottom, R25-R35 everywhere else (Recently added a layer)

  2. under floored attic - R13 with vapor barrier on the bottom (i did this myself), no room for anymore.

  3. cathedral ceiling. No access. only 5.5" clearance. Lost cause (but no leaks this year)

  4. back section - isolated attic. vapor barrier, R-30 on top (again, I did it myself).

So thanks, but what I’m really trying to get at is what I can do, because of the shallowness of my roof, as a better protection against ice dams than I/W Barrier.

Thanks!
/j

19

[quote=“jeffw_00”]Famous - those are great suggestions for someone else, I think. For my roof I have 4 sections

  1. normal crawl-space: Vapor barrier on the bottom, R25-R35 everywhere else (Recently added a layer)

  2. under floored attic - R13 with vapor barrier on the bottom (i did this myself), no room for anymore.

  3. cathedral ceiling. No access. only 5.5" clearance. Lost cause (but no leaks this year)

  4. back section - isolated attic. vapor barrier, R-30 on top (again, I did it myself).

So thanks, but what I’m really trying to get at is what I can do, because of the shallowness of my roof, as a better protection against ice dams than I/W Barrier.

Thanks!
/j[/quote]

Your best defense against ice dams is a functioning ventilation system and good insulation.

20

[quote=“famous”] If you didn’t tear off the old I/W barrier then how can you be certain the decking is OK?
[/quote]

You would have to be an experianced roofer to know…