Modified Bitumen Gaps and Wrinkles

I am getting my roof reshingled after hail damage. Monday will be day 7 of what was estimated to be a 2 day job. The back of the house is low sloped which was originally shingled. That part is being replaced with adhesive modified bitumen rolled roofing material.

Are wrinkles and 3/4 inch gaps with no minerals (black part where rows are supposed to overlap) a problem for modified bitumen? From what I understand the minerals are to protect shingles from UV and weather. If it is a problem, is there a way to fix this without re-roofing the back again?

Not sure how they’re going to correct that. Yes, gaps are bad and need to be corrected.

Ideally, there should be no wrinkles. There definitely should not be any of the adhesive strip exposed at the top of the rolls.

I doubt if it could be properly fixed without replacing the whole thing.

Sounds like you ended up with a hack crew.

You can add pics to your album and we would be in a much better position to answer your questions.

Thanks. I added photos to my gallery.

What do I tell the roofer? Do I tell him he has to do it all over again? Do I pay them then tell my insurance company and have them deal with it? I am getting this new roof paid for by insurance due to hail damage.

I also have a question on the shingles at the front of my house. The drip edge is not installed in line with the decking so the last row of shingles bend up (with the corner of the plywood decking) then droop at the end. It may be due to the facia originally being installed wrong and they just worked with what was there. Photos of that added too.

Keep in mind my response is based only on what you have provided, but if you hired this crew to install the mod bit SA system and the shingles, and they didn’t do such properly, they wouldn’t be paid until the work was corrected. Period. End of Story. No discussion. If you have paid them, good luck getting it repaired/replaced, and you just had an education money can’t buy.

The wrinkles are definitely a problem. Depending on the circumstances sheets laid directly over wood can wrinkle due to climate changes/wood movement which cannot be avoided unless you add a cover board. However, by looking at it I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. It looks like an installation issue to me.

[quote=“jac99”]Thanks. I added photos to my gallery.

What do I tell the roofer? Do I tell him he has to do it all over again? Do I pay them then tell my insurance company and have them deal with it? I am getting this new roof paid for by insurance due to hail damage.

I also have a question on the shingles at the front of my house. The drip edge is not installed in line with the decking so the last row of shingles bend up (with the corner of the plywood decking) then droop at the end. It may be due to the facia originally being installed wrong and they just worked with what was there. Photos of that added too.[/quote]

It doesn’t look like they used a heavy roller at all, that may help with the wrinkles.
The over exposed seams aren’t good.

I vote for a do over.

From what little I see of the shingle job that doesn’t all that great either.

I talked to my contractor and he says everything I am worried about is just cosmetic, the roof won’t leak. Yes its going to last. If anything is going to leak, its going to leak in the first year and I have a 5 year warranty.

He said he will put granules on the uncovered black parts of the modified bitumen. I think with a torch. Is that a good idea on adhesive modified bitumen? How is that going to look?

He says the wrinkles are just cosmetic. They won’t hurt anything. No flat roof is wrinkle free. They may flatten out in the heat of the sun. He says they have used a roller.

The drip edge/drooping shingles are due to how the roof was built and he can’t fix that without rebuilding that part of the roof. He said something about the trusses. That was a small added on front porch so doesn’t surprise me if the construction was wrong. But my old 3 tab shingles didn’t droop like that. I added a before shot of my porch corner. Its not a great angle, but it shows the shingles were laying flat.

There is a layer of blue material stuck with adhesive to the plywood deck. On top of that is the weathered wood modified bitumen. There were certainly some waves and lumps in the plywood. Photos added of the blue material.

I added some more photos of the shingles since you mentioned them.

Thanks for your help.

[quote=“jac99”]I talked to my contractor and he says everything I am worried about is just cosmetic, the roof won’t leak. Yes its going to last. If anything is going to leak, its going to leak in the first year and I have a 5 year warranty.

He said he will put granules on the uncovered black parts of the modified bitumen. I think with a torch. Is that a good idea on adhesive modified bitumen? How is that going to look?

He says the wrinkles are just cosmetic. They won’t hurt anything. No flat roof is wrinkle free. They may flatten out in the heat of the sun. He says they have used a roller.

The drip edge/drooping shingles are due to how the roof was built and he can’t fix that without rebuilding that part of the roof. He said something about the trusses. That was a small added on front porch so doesn’t surprise me if the construction was wrong. But my old 3 tab shingles didn’t droop like that. I added a before shot of my porch corner. Its not a great angle, but it shows the shingles were laying flat.

There is a layer of blue material stuck with adhesive to the plywood deck. On top of that is the weathered wood modified bitumen. There were certainly some waves and lumps in the plywood. Photos added of the blue material.

I added some more photos of the shingles since you mentioned them.

Thanks for your help.[/quote]

Putting granules on the laps with a torch is common practice, and while not ideal or the most professional, the laps shouldn’t be a major issue. If put on solidly the granules should look fine after installed. It could become a maintenance item in the future though depending on weather conditions. All of the granules will slowly come off but torch applied lap granules will be more prone to coming loose if not installed correctly.

Another note on the torch. It is common practice but there are very specific safety requirements when using a torch with a wood deck present. Just make sure he follows those practices, even for just putting granules on.

The wrinkles at this time are cosmetic, but in a few years they will be more than that. wrinkles in the field can be dealt with but when those wrinkles cross your laps (like many do in your pictures) that creates a weak spot that will break open after a few years. He is wrong in saying that it will leak in the first year if it will at all because the wrinkles create humps that cause more water flow and more stress damage over time. Will it last through the 5 year warranty? Probably. If I was to bet I would say it probably will. The difference is a proper modified roof can last well past that mark whereas a “just to get by” modified roof will start failing in a few years… of course after 5 years it will no longer be his problem…

[quote=“jac99”]I talked to my contractor and he says everything I am worried about is just cosmetic, the roof won’t leak. Yes its going to last. If anything is going to leak, its going to leak in the first year and I have a 5 year warranty.

He said he will put granules on the uncovered black parts of the modified bitumen. I think with a torch. Is that a good idea on adhesive modified bitumen? How is that going to look?

He says the wrinkles are just cosmetic. They won’t hurt anything. No flat roof is wrinkle free. They may flatten out in the heat of the sun. He says they have used a roller.

The drip edge/drooping shingles are due to how the roof was built and he can’t fix that without rebuilding that part of the roof. He said something about the trusses. That was a small added on front porch so doesn’t surprise me if the construction was wrong. But my old 3 tab shingles didn’t droop like that. I added a before shot of my porch corner. Its not a great angle, but it shows the shingles were laying flat.

There is a layer of blue material stuck with adhesive to the plywood deck. On top of that is the weathered wood modified bitumen. There were certainly some waves and lumps in the plywood. Photos added of the blue material.

I added some more photos of the shingles since you mentioned them.

Thanks for your help.[/quote]

I wouldn’t use a torch on Self Adhered modified ever, for any reason.
The reason you are seeing part of the seam is because the seam is not lapped at spec, it’s too small.

Who wants to replace work they recently did?

The bottom line is that the modified is obviously improperly installed, a professional wouldn’t do that nor accept that work from the people under them.

Many of the posters on this forum install low slope roofing on a daily basis, with no wrinkles in it.

Occasionally we will get a small wrinkle, this is the exception rather than the rule.
Your roof has several large wrinkles.

The shingles look straight and all but that doesn’t show the location of the nails and if they were buried into the shingles with too much air compression or not. I’m not a huge fan of the way they ran the valleys but it will probably be ok.

The self adhered rubber roof looks a little rough. There are too many wrinkles and they are too big. Probably won’t leak for several years but over time if the sun does not flatten it out and I doubt it does with the biggest ones, cracks will appear right in the center of the wrinkles and leakage can begin to occur at some time thereafter. I’ve put down a LOT of self adhered membrane and when I leave it is smooth and flat with no adhesive strips showing.

It’s not the worst S/A Membrane job I’ve ever seen but it’s not a good one.

Here’s a small one I did a while back. It’s not perfect but it should give you a good idea of what you got versus what you should have gotten.

[attachment=0]2013-05-23 08.47.15.jpg[/attachment]

I added 2 more photos, now that they have “finished,” I ran water where the shingles meet the low slope. Water pools up there. Before I ran water on it to check, I talked to the roofer about it looking too flat for shingles. He said there is at least 12 inches of membrane under the shingles so it will be fine. Even if there was, pooling water can’t be good in the long term. It looks to me like its actually 10 inches and the dip is right after that.

How do I convince the roofer that the flat roof needs to be redone?

Looks like my work Chucky. And I bet a lot of the others from this site. :slight_smile:

:shock:
I’m not going to get into the ways to argue the issue, but I’ll add my vote to the ‘Redo’ column. That’s just so wrong. And so you know, shingles are ‘water resistant’, not water proof, and water is running under those babies in a big way that will only worsen. :shock:

The pitch transition needs another course.

The shingle job looks better than I thought, California valleys are never a good sign though.

Wow. I just looked at those pics and I don’t even know where to begin. For starters, it appears you only have a little over 12" of modified running up the slope. That should be 18". One of the pics show the transition with the base sheet exposed and you can clearly see the construction defect. The deck of the low slope porch creates a dam when it joins the steeper slope. This could have and should have been corrected. Tapered edge strip, small framed transition joint…something. Hard to tell exactly what would’ve worked from a pic but your contractor should’ve known. The defect becomes his responsibility if he roofs over it and does not inform you of the issue. You could’ve declined the offer to fix but at least at that point, it would’ve become your problem. Bad communication if nothing was said. I don’t know why the contractor would’ve passed up a chance for a valid change order. Same issue with the standing water at the transition. This is and will be an issue. Especially with ice and snow. Hence the Previous comment regarding the 12" of materials upslope. Insofar as the adhesive fast lap strip showing. Technically, if the adhesive is showing, you don’t have an adequate lap. It appears they just got off of their lines as it looked to cover further back in the roll. The adhesive will collect dirt and debris and could be an issue as water breaks it down if the water has the opportunity to continuing breaking down passed the lap. Don’t let them put a torch to this material to put embedd granules. The previous poster is wrong. Granules are common on traditional APP or SBS modified systems in the bleed out at the laps, but not on an SA system such as this. The torch will burn up this membrane and scar it badly. It will look worse than it does now. If any heat is to put in the laps of this system it should be done with an air welder, not an open flame torch. The mole trails (wrinkles) could be in the base sheet below and telegraphing through the cap sheet. Hard to tell. It wouldn’t pass my inspection but I’ve seen worse. If this was a torch roof, I would have them cut out and stripped. Not a lot of options for repairing this on an SA system. Lastly, the idiot stripped in a 3in1 on a low slope roof. This is all I needed to see to let me know he knows nothing about flat roofs. Should’ve used a lead set in a bed of mastic, primed the area and installed a 3x3 target over the penetration. This is why SA membranes are bad for the industry. It lets shinglers think they can be low slope roofers. Just my .02.

" Lastly, the idiot stripped in a 3in1 on a low slope roof." :smiley:

I thought I was the only one that saw that. I don’t remember the SBS spec, but believe it’s the same as APP.

Im not sure I understand what you said about 3 in 1. If you mean 3 tab shingles on the last rows before the modified bitumen, they are definitely architectural shingles. The angle of some of my photos makes them look flat.

In this case 3 in 1 is referring to the pipe boot that was used on the low slope portion of your roof.

Before installing the membrane roof, smooth valley metal should have been installed across the length of the slope change. This would have taken out the “dip” and prevented the ponding water. Ponding water wears out the portion of the roof it sits on before the rest of the roof wears out.

The bottom two courses of shingles should not have been installed at all. Shingles belong on the steeper slope and the steeper slope ONLY. If they nailed them down into that low slope roof, through the membrane, water WILL find its way to the nails and slowly eat away at them until the leak reveals itself inside the home.