Principle concerning excess materials

hello everyone!
I’m a home owner and i apologize in advance if my question is answered elsewhere on this site.

I had signed a contract for the replacement of my roof over 6 months ago. last month the contractor wanted to change the deal so we entered a verbal agreement for an upgraded roof. I was up against a deadline to file with my insurance company and the contractor decided to file his invoice with the insurance company before he did the work. I received the depreciation before the work was completed. and before the contractor asked me to buy the materials directly from his supply house.

I wrote a personal check to the supply house for the materials.

the estimate lists my roof at approximately 21 squares. after delivery there was 3 squares in excess shingles. so i kept them… now the contractor is telling me i have no right to them. he is accusing me of larceny. demanding that the shingles be returned for credit to his account as a matter of principle.

i have 3 squares of malarkey highland cs shingles left over from a roof replacement that totaled $4900.00 after all said and done… are they his or mine? i believe that if he had fronted the money for materials the answer would be “his”. but i fronted the money as he requested… so?..

this in Texas if that matters.

Thanks guys…

I am a big proponent of “turnkey” roofing contracts where the roofing contractor is responsible for all facets of the roofing contract, inclusive of purchasing the material and being soley responsible ordering too little or too much material. If not enough material is ordered then the contractor pays and you do not. If the contractor orders too much then he pays and your, the HO, get no refund.

In this instance, however, it seems the roofing contractor did NOT enter into a “turnkey” contract with you as you purchased the material (at his direction).

I would say that it is tough luck for him and he should pound sand.

Thanks for the reply… in order to clarify things a little…

When we first signed the contract (last august) he promiced a “turn key” project. He said at the time that he specialised in negotiating supplements with the insurance company… He blew be off for 5 months telling me “delivery next week multiple times”. when i realised that my claim extension was running out i threatened to take my buisness elsewhere. THAT is when he changed the deal… He told me that his negociations with the ins. co. fell through but he could deliver a 30 yr roof for an extra $500 over the depreciation.

Our verbal agreement was…
$1300 deposit (in August)
$500 Upon delivery of materials
$3200 upon completion of roof (the depreciation)
$5000 total

The week of delivery he asked me to buy the materials directly from his supply house and subtract the cost from the depreciation… so the deal wound up being
$1300 deposit (in August)
$2800 for materials (paid to his supplier)
$900 upon completion (paid to his sub)
$5000 total

He keeps citing the contract i signed last August for a 20 year roof, a fixed fence, replaced window and gutter, and combed condencer fins… All i wound up with is the roof and 3 squares of excess shingles… he blew the rest off saying no money in it for him. Though i believe he invoiced for the total esitmate so the deperciation check would be maxed out.

I’ve told him to pound sand but he has accused me of poor integrity and as “a matter of principle” (to him) he couldn’t just let the 3 squares go… 3 squares of excess on a 21 square roof? fells fishy too me…

anyone else have an opinion???

Sounds like you got stuck with a Contractor who has financial issues and didn’t have the cash flow to purchase materials. Let’s hope that is the limit of your problems but I wouldn’t count on that. Also sounds like they’ve technically already breached their contract. Not seeing the contract or knowing all the details, I cannot tell you with 100% certainty what you’re legally entitled to. I think I’d keep one bundle in your garage and return the remainder for a credit. I’m struggling to understand what the Contractor could do about it aside from whine.

maybe i should look at it from another angle. I know you guys can answer these questions…

How much should this roof have cost me?

How good of a deal did i get?

Are malarkey highlander-cs shingles good shingles?

How long from tear off to cleanup on a pretty simple 21square roof(his crew took 6 hours)?

I have not walked up on the roof to check things out. I wouldn’t even know what i was looking at if i did…

Thanks again…

“I wrote a personal check to the supply house for the materials.”

nuff said. You paid for them, they are yours. Unless of course the contract you signed states otherwise.

Let me play devils advocate…

Lets say the roofer was short 3 sq’s, would you then pony up the extra money to buy 3 sqs and pay additional labor to install them dispite the contract for $XXXXX.

You paid for a complete roof, which you got.

The contractor presented his estimated costs to the insurance company. The money (which is his money) you receive, is to be held in trust by you so as to make appropriate disbursement. He should repay you for the materials you ordered and your time, and gas. And maybe lunch.

He is entitled to the whole of what he invoiced for, assuming he does all of what he is invoicing for. That he is approximately 3 Squares/300SF/15% over in material is puzzling, but the materials that the insurer agreed to pay for are his materials.

You could purchase some the material in case of needed partial repairs in the future. And he could measure a roof with more exact measurements.

That’s Rich! After reading all the information it sounds like this contractor is the one attempting to commit larceny.

If you have the receipt for the shingles, they are yours. It doesn’t even sound like he did all the work he contracted to do. He is skating on very thin ice with position.

Yeah this is a tricky situation. If he was the one who paid the supplier I would be 100% siding with him that the shingles belong to him and he gets the credit for the return. Let me get this straight, your agreed on 5k to replace your roof and that’s the total you paid between the deposit/supplies/completion? Like tar said if you paid for the materials technically they belong to you, and by keeping them you wouldn’t be being unreasonable. But you did agree to pay 5k for the roof right not 5k minus the $300 back for materials? I think a fair compromise would be for you to let him have 4 or 5 bundles (half the leftovers) to return for credit to his account and you keep the rest to do whatever you want to with them since you were the one to pay for them.

I myself would never allow a homeowner to pay the supply company because of this situation. I don’t want to argue with anyone over who the extras belong to, although I have had a few try even after I explained I always order a sq. or two extra depending on the roof and that I was the one who paid the supplier. Like A.D. said it sounds like they are hurting money wise and maybe their supply house won’t let “them” order any more materials until they pay what they owe.

Thank you to everyone who chimed in.

I’ve decided that I’m quite happy with my roof because i believe his subs did a great job. I’ve decided to offer the contractor $200 to try to change his mind even though he didn’t perform all the work he said he would. the 3 squares are enough to reroof my storage shed so i’m keeping them for that purpose.
I just wish i’d done my research before signing the contract… this guy is broke. he hasn’t paid his taxes and has forfited his right to do buisness as a corporation in Texas. I also believe he didn’t pull the propper permits for the work with the city. I put myself in this situation and i believe i’m lucky he didn’t just run off with my deposit. He was convicted of robbery 20 years ago…
well, wish me luck…

Thanks guys…

[quote=“andywrs”]Let me play devils advocate…

Lets say the roofer was short 3 sq’s, would you then pony up the extra money to buy 3 sqs and pay additional labor to install them dispite the contract for $XXXXX.

You paid for a complete roof, which you got.[/quote]

If the roofing company was 3 sq short then that is their problem, they should have estimated properly.
This HO went to the supplier and paid for the materials himself, the roofing company has 0 claim to that material, considering the HO has the receipt.

[quote=“SmartMills”]hello everyone!

i have 3 squares of[highlight=#ffff80]malarkey[/highlight]highland cs shingles left over from a roof replacement that totaled $4900.00 after all said and done… are they his or mine? i believe that if he had fronted the money for materials the answer would be “his”. but i fronted the money as he requested… so?..

Thanks guys…[/quote]

That roofer full of Malarkey :lol:

[quote=“SmartMills”]Thank you to everyone who chimed in.

I’ve decided that I’m quite happy with my roof because i believe his subs did a great job. I’ve decided to offer the contractor $200 to try to change his mind even though he didn’t perform all the work he said he would. the 3 squares are enough to reroof my storage shed so i’m keeping them for that purpose.
I just wish i’d done my research before signing the contract… this guy is broke. he hasn’t paid his taxes and has forfited his right to do buisness as a corporation in Texas. I also believe he didn’t pull the propper permits for the work with the city. I put myself in this situation and i believe i’m lucky he didn’t just run off with my deposit. He was convicted of robbery 20 years ago…
well, wish me luck…

Thanks guys…[/quote]

[highlight=#ffbfff]“He keeps citing the contract i signed last August for a 20 year roof, a fixed fence, replaced window and gutter, and combed condencer fins… All i wound up with is the roof and 3 squares of excess shingles… he blew the rest off saying no money in it for him. Though i believe he invoiced for the total esitmate so the deperciation check would be maxed out.”[/highlight]

If at the time of the verbal contract it was your understanding that it included the fence and window and gutter and condenser fins, then tell him once that stuff is done, he can have the left over shingles.

Who’s Material Money Is It?

  1. Contractor establishes his reconstruction scope and price with adjuster, based off of materials, labor, and etc. expected for project fulfillment, and his livelihood.
  2. Insurer agrees to THE CONTRACTOR’s costs/his money needed for indemnifying the consumer for the contractor’s contract fulfillment with the consumer, and the consumer’s financial obligations to the contractor.
  3. Insurer sends to the consumer the contractor’s money accordingly.
  4. Contractor inherently owns of all the anticipated materials, labor. etc. project values insurer/contractor agreed to.
  5. For whatever the circumstance - Consumer agrees to (temporarily) pay for contractor’s materials out-of-pocket.
  6. Contractor agrees to pay consumer, (out of insurer forwarded funds for the consumer to hold for contractor), for all materials purchased.
  7. The contractor agreed to replace the roof for a certain contract price.
  8. At the end of the project fulfillment, all purchased and left over materials are still the property of the contractor.
  9. The consumer was a third party to the insurer/contractor “arms length” relationship that established the money for the contractor’s livelihood.
  10. A receipt in the hand of the consumer does not make the consumer the new “owner” of the insurance funded/contractor owned materials. It simply makes them the purchaser for the true owner, who is the contractor.

The receipt simply reflects part of the contractor’s ownership of the materials, and conversely, part of the contractor’s financial investment risk in the property.

The aggregate labor, overhead, materials, sales tax and profit reconstruction cost values would be owned solely by the consumer **if **the consumer labored and established their own reconstruction damage scope, reconstruction protocols, and reconstruction costs with the insurer.

That “the consumer is the contractor” market scenario did not occur.

Sending my daughter to the store with money for purchasing ice cream for herself does not mean she is somehow inherently entitled to the leftover change.

Although she may unfairly try to reason otherwise…lol.

[quote=“CatContractor”]Who’s Material Money Is It?

  1. Contractor establishes his reconstruction scope and price with adjuster, based off of materials, labor, and etc. expected for project fulfillment, and his livelihood.
  2. Insurer agrees to THE CONTRACTOR’s costs/his money needed for indemnifying the consumer for the contractor’s contract fulfillment with the consumer, and the consumer’s financial obligations to the contractor.
  3. Insurer sends to the consumer the contractor’s money accordingly.
  4. Contractor inherently owns of all the anticipated materials, labor. etc. project values insurer/contractor agreed to.
  5. For whatever the circumstance - Consumer agrees to (temporarily) pay for contractor’s materials out-of-pocket.
  6. Contractor agrees to pay consumer, (out of insurer forwarded funds for the consumer to hold for contractor), for all materials purchased.
  7. The contractor agreed to replace the roof for a certain contract price.
  8. At the end of the project fulfillment, all purchased and left over materials are still the property of the contractor.
  9. The consumer was a third party to the insurer/contractor “arms length” relationship that established the money for the contractor’s livelihood.
  10. A receipt in the hand of the consumer does not make the consumer the new “owner” of the insurance funded/contractor owned materials. It simply makes them the purchaser for the true owner, who is the contractor.

The receipt simply reflects part of the contractor’s ownership of the materials, and conversely, part of the contractor’s financial investment risk in the property.

The aggregate labor, overhead, materials, sales tax and profit reconstruction cost values would be owned solely by the consumer **if **the consumer labored and established their own reconstruction damage scope, reconstruction protocols, and reconstruction costs with the insurer.

That “the consumer is the contractor” market scenario did not occur.

Sending my daughter to the store with money for purchasing ice cream for herself does not mean she is somehow inherently entitled to the leftover change.

Although she may unfairly try to reason otherwise…lol.[/quote]

which contract would take Precedence?
the written contract shown to an insurance company, that was never fulfilled or the verbal contract between customer and contractor?

If part of the insurance company money was for a replacement window but the window has not been replaced, has the insurance company been defrauded? If so, by whom?

As usual, CatContractor has only confused the issue and offered nothing useful. The only contract that matters in this case is whatever contract existed between the Homeowner and the Contractor. That is what the dispute over the excess materials is about. The insurance company has no legal standing to get involved in this matter.

[quote=“CatContractor”]Who’s Material Money Is It?

Sending my daughter to the store with money for purchasing ice cream for herself does not mean she is somehow inherently entitled to the leftover change.

…lol.[/quote]

So you send your daughter to Ben & Jerry’s to get a triple scoop chocolate peppermint crunch. She eats half of it and tells mom she is full. Mom put’s the rest in the freezer and tells her she can finish it after her nap. Now are you going to eat that poor little girls ice cream while she is sleeping?

[quote=“CatContractor”]Who’s Material Money Is It?

  1. Contractor establishes his reconstruction scope and price with adjuster, based off of materials, labor, and etc. expected for project fulfillment, and his livelihood.
  2. Insurer agrees to THE CONTRACTOR’s costs/his money needed for indemnifying the consumer for the contractor’s contract fulfillment with the consumer, and the consumer’s financial obligations to the contractor.
  3. Insurer sends to the consumer the contractor’s money accordingly.
  4. Contractor inherently owns of all the anticipated materials, labor. etc. project values insurer/contractor agreed to.
  5. For whatever the circumstance - Consumer agrees to (temporarily) pay for contractor’s materials out-of-pocket.
  6. Contractor agrees to pay consumer, (out of insurer forwarded funds for the consumer to hold for contractor), for all materials purchased.
  7. The contractor agreed to replace the roof for a certain contract price.
  8. At the end of the project fulfillment, all purchased and left over materials are still the property of the contractor.
  9. The consumer was a third party to the insurer/contractor “arms length” relationship that established the money for the contractor’s livelihood.
  10. A receipt in the hand of the consumer does not make the consumer the new “owner” of the insurance funded/contractor owned materials. It simply makes them the purchaser for the true owner, who is the contractor.

The receipt simply reflects part of the contractor’s ownership of the materials, and conversely, part of the contractor’s financial investment risk in the property.

The aggregate labor, overhead, materials, sales tax and profit reconstruction cost values would be owned solely by the consumer **if **the consumer labored and established their own reconstruction damage scope, reconstruction protocols, and reconstruction costs with the insurer.

That “the consumer is the contractor” market scenario did not occur.

Sending my daughter to the store with money for purchasing ice cream for herself does not mean she is somehow inherently entitled to the leftover change.

Although she may unfairly try to reason otherwise…lol.[/quote]

This is stupid even for you.