Questions about Flat Roof Part Two

I posted my original concerns in this thread about the job done on my low slope roof.

should-i-be-concerned-about-this-flat-roof-tearoff-job-t14924.html?hilit=should%20i%20be%20concerned%20about

Thanks to the feedback everyone provided, I was able to get them to redo the roof a little over a week ago. This time, with the torch down that was originally contracted. However, despite him continuing to insist it was a fine job, had no choice but to have the same guy they subbed out return for the redo. Below are pictures of the finished product after a light rain yesterday.

I really don’t know how this particular material is supposed to look and feel upon completion but some wrinkles/raised areas seem off and why the yellow stripes? Are those meant to be visible? There are some burned in foot prints and gouges on the surface and additionally, there are many areas where you can place your hand and feel the roof depress like it’s not really adhered to the surface below. I didn’t know if maybe that’s supposed to smooth out over time.

So… ok or burned again?

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2020

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2021

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2022

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2023

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2024

I.M.O., it’s still incomplete. The laps/seams still need to be tooled in. That’s when you put a small amount of flame to the top of the modified bit’s laps/seams & drag a trowel across the heated area like a snow plow. The heated modified bit then runs down & seals the laps/seams permanently. After that you seal the roof with Karnak Alumicoat. Another thing I would question is where the roof & wall tie in? Was the roof done & then the vinyl siding? Because if the siding was already there how did they tie in? The siding looks too good? It sure don’t look like a flat roofer tore off that vinyl, roofed it, & put that siding back perfect? No way? The down spout pipe should be continued/extended to the lower gutter as well.

Thanks for your response. Here’s a picture of where the roof meets the siding. It’s some kind of aluminum flashing piece nailed down at the back under the j-channel. Not sure what is happening underneath that. The gutter actually did run all the way down but they cut it instead to avoid the need to nail brackets for it into the roofing.

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2025

If you know what you’re doing when torching APP you should have a small amount of “bleed out” at all the seams. You don’t go back and tool the seams with a trowel unless you’re fixing a “fish mouth” as heating and tooling can damage the scrim.

As far as the wall tie in? Simple enough to check to see if they ran it up the wall. I’d bet they did since they’d have melted that siding into slag if the torch had gotten within 3 feet of it.

Don’t know what that black strip is at the rear wall…some kind of head-wall vent? Typically that would be mounted on the face of the wall if so. /shrug

Don’t coat with aluminum coat, nothing sticks to the stuff and it makes it next to impossible to repair or patch in the future. Use something like Karnak 220 if you need to, or better yet have them burn a granulated cap sheet down.

Not sure if you went with the cheaper company or not… third times the charm?

Tar, that’s somekind of base flashing metal/counter flashing. It looks like edge metal turned upside down to me. It is! I bet it’s hardly under the vinyl siding! I don’t trust it, too loose & too small. I question the other wall? No hand prints, melted siding, or base metal like here? Need closer pics of that. They got a lot of balls torching on a residential roof. Their liability insurance co. would crap a brick!

We never leave a smooth as the top layer, always gets another layer of granulated. What you have there is a base.

This was actually the highest estimate I believe, bit the bullet and figured it would be worth it for the peace of mind because the company had good reviews and has been around for decades and has a physical office fairly close to my house. I didn’t realize it was going to be subcontracted to a different construction company. Maybe not a good sign when that owner hands you his card after doing the job the second time and it just says ‘Kitchen and Bath’ on it.

After my initial complaints, they kept assuring me they use him all the time and he does great work. I didn’t bother telling them he was trying to sell me on doing the main roof and other future projects without them.

The project was this low slope roof and the small shingle side bay and front roofs for $6100. Part of the project in the contract was to manipulate or repair existing siding. According to the subcontractor at the beginning, they had to make do because they don’t make that siding any more.

You’re right, those metal flashing pieces don’t go far under the siding. They actually used those on the front roof where the shingles meet the siding as well. I asked about those but they said that’s normal and will be watertight.

Can anyone tell me if those yellow stripes are normal? I obviously care more about the thing working than aesthetics and it’s in the back of the house but two bedroom windows do look out onto this roof. Anyone in Chicago know if there’s some kind of industry standard way to get an independent roof inspection?

That’s a big fat no! The yellow lines are supposed to be on the top of the sheet of modified, not the bottom. That’s a set & guide line for the installers to keep the sheet straight. That metal should be like atleast 5’‘x7’‘, with the 7’’ going up the wall behind the Tyvek which is behind the vinyl siding. If it is edge metal, it’s only going under 2 1/2’’ to 3’’ max! It looks like there’s a plastic coating still on it. The price sounds high too & I have no clue why they didn’t use .060 EPDM rubber instead? They took a hell of a chance using an open flame on a residential structure. Kitchen & Bath huh? That’s why I let my customers know I use no sub contractors, druggies, drunks, & illegals!

Thanks a lot Bob. It’s been pretty cool and rainy and it seems like it’s looking worse every day.

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=524&image_id=2026

That metal at the white siding part should not be bent down into the roof at the bottom like that either. I have repaired many just like it where the metal cut into the roofing over time and caused leaks. The edges of the metal are somewhat sharp and the roofing is soft. Combine this with the heat of the sun and after some time the metal will eventually cut into the roofing.

Where the blue siding wall is, it looks like there’s caulking or tar on the white part that’s touching the roof. That white part is called J-Channel. If it’s caulked or tarred they obviously didn’t go up under & behind the siding with the roof.

Ah, that’s kind of an optical illusion. That’s actually the house next door and the white is the gravel stop. This roof is over the kitchen and only meets the siding at the top. It’s maybe 12’ x 20’.

The only real complaint I can see is the metal flashing possibly cutting into the modified over time.
I think it’s there to hide the tar job they did at the wall.
Modified is to go up the wall. Not to the wall.
It could work if there is no ponding in the area.

All the other advice? Terrible.
Smooth modified is perfectly acceptable as a finished product.
And live its full warranted life cycle with no coating or granulated cap sheet installed on top of it.

The Manufactuer would not offer a 12 year warranty if it still needed granulated cap sheet on top of it.

And yes you should install aluminum roof coating if you want a cool structure and your smooth modified to last and last.

Smooth torch down modified Is the best low slope roofing product if it is maintained with aluminum roof coating.
Keep it painted and it can very well be your last roof.

The only real complaint I can see is the metal flashing possibly cutting into the modified over time.

Not having bleed out isn’t a concern to you? lol. That should be your #1 concern.

Modified is to go up the wall. Not to the wall.

Agreed. But you should add that when running up a wall you should be suing a cant strip as APP isn’t made for 90 degree bends.

Smooth modified is perfectly acceptable as a finished product.
And live its full warranted life cycle with no coating or granulated cap sheet installed on top of it.

Fair enough but a 3 ply system lasts longer than a 2 ply system and carriers a longer warranty. Why would you not advocate a granular cap
sheet over a coating product on a brand new roof is beyond me. If you’re so concerned about a “cool structure” (which terminology does not
actually apply the way you mean it here) then why not use a white granular cap sheet?

Smooth torch down modified Is the best low slope roofing product if it is maintained with aluminum roof coating.

Highly debatable with all the single ply systems out there now. Have you ever actually roofed and if so was it back in the 30’s? There are tons of new technological advances in roofing these days and while I will admit that BUR and Torch applied modified are resilient roof systems, they are certainly not
“the best” systems for all applications across the board, far from it these days.

Oh, I got you. Optical illusion. Like Tar Monkey said, bleed. That’s why I recommended screeding/sealing the laps.

thirdshift: “Ah, that’s kind of an optical illusion. That’s actually the house next door and the white is the gravel stop. This roof is over the kitchen and only meets the siding at the top. It’s maybe 12’ x 20’.”

:lol:

Chucky, the top kick on the gravel stop sure looked like J Channel from here! : )

Tar monkey,
It’s real easy to see bleed out with granulated modified.
It’s much harder to see with smooth and these pics.
But I looked harder and I do see bleed out in some of these pics.
So since I don’t have hard evidence that there is bleed out missing everywhere, I am not going to harm the installing contractor with my words( like you)

Why did I not advocate for 2 or 3 ply ?
Why not 10 or 20 ply? That would be better right?
Maybe the homeowner doesn’t feel like paying 3x the amount for his roof when he doesn’t have to.

And again, saying that you shouldn’t aluminum coat the modified because it doesn’t stick and harder to do future repairs is probably the worst advice I’ve ever heard from a " roofer"
A total 180 degrees from reality.

So since I don’t have hard evidence that there is bleed out missing everywhere, I am not going to harm the installing contractor with my words( like you)

But you’ll harm everyone that gave advice on this thread prior to your original post by stating all the advice given except for yours was “terrible”? Hypocritical much?

Why did I not advocate for 2 or 3 ply ?
Why not 10 or 20 ply? That would be better right?
Maybe the homeowner doesn’t feel like paying 3x the amount for his roof when he doesn’t have to.

Not really sure what you’re trying to get at here. Two and three ply systems are and have been industry standard, your sarcasm about doing a 10 or 20 ply makes no sense at all. The fact I was getting at was that a white granular cap sheet would extend the roof life (and warranty) over and beyond an AF coating. An extra ply will in no way incur 3x the cost of what was paid for the current 2 ply shown in the pictures, not even close.

And again, saying that you shouldn’t aluminum coat the modified because it doesn’t stick and harder to do future repairs is probably the worst advice I’ve ever heard from a " roofer"
A total 180 degrees from reality.

I never said AF coating doesn’t stick, of course it sticks… Nothing however will stick to* it*. This makes any future repairs next to impossible. I personally dislike any system that is not conducive to future repairs and refuse to recommend these types of products. As I’ve already stated, there are newer and better products available these days. Do some reading, make some phone calls…

Going further… “cool roofs” are a subject of heated debate, same as ventilation, although there are currently more studies on the former. Any energy savings
in a place like Chicago are going to be miniscule to non-existent. If anything I’d suggest the most non-reflective roof available for someone living in frigid Chicago, lol. Perhaps cool roofing should be the next topic of discussion at your weekly IwishIwasAroofer meeting. You and xrayguy can discuss how clueless the rest of us are here at the Roofing.com forum in between his feeble attempts at roofing based poetry and finger sandwiches.

I agree I shouldn’t have made the comment about terrible advice. I should have been specific about exactly who and what I was disagreeing with and been more sensitive.