Hello,
I’m looking for some impartial opinions on this…
I had my roof redone last Fall. The roofer recommended replacing the existing 13 box vents with 84’ of ShingleVent II. This was a big improvement in exhaust NFA so I agreed. I didn’t double check his measurements, however, and after the roof was done I found only 40’ of ridge vent had been installed. There was never room for 84’.
The attic is currently under ventilated. I purchased a pair of Natural Light Solar attic fans off the web to help the situation. I asked that the roofer install them for free in compensation for the missing 44’ of ridge vent I didn’t receive. He estimated it would take one person about an hour to do the install. (This is on a ranch house with a 4/12 pitch roof. The vent locations are near the two attic entrances. There’s nothing that would make the install tricky.)
After discussing the problem with the company owner he offered to install both of them for 50 or 60 dollars. I don’t know what they normally charge so I don’t know how much they are knocking off the labor costs.
Sounds to me like he’s basically offering to loan one of his guys out to you. I cant imagine between fuel and what he is going to pay his roofer that he is going to make a dime.
are you sure on the amount of ridge agreed on? are there dormers on your house that you overlooked?
If it says in your contract that your suppose to get 84 ft and you only have 40 than in my opinion he should not have a problem doing this for free to make things right, but if you overlooked a dormer or two with rige installed than I would say the amount he is asking for is more than fair.
84 feet of ridge vent is written in the contract. Only two 20 foot sections of vent were installed. The attic is partitioned into 3 sections which makes the ventilation situation worse. There is one section with a 20 foot ridge vent but no soffit vents and another section with soffit vents but no ridge vent. I definitely need the extra vents.
I always want to hear the other side of the story. Most often, there are little trade-offs that work for both parties, along the way. Do you think you are forgetting anything that may have come up?
Was there a contract for the job or just promises? Either way, you both should have your word as your bond.
If there is not any defense from the roofer, then, the roofer should install the new vents for free, and he should apologize. You are totally in the driver’ seat if he did not amend the contract as it went (if there was one), given that he does not have another side to the story. I hear on here all the time how important contracts are. I also know that they are more often weapons of hurt than protection against hurt.
If you are all in the right, then you can offer to let him do the work for free or report him to the BBB, if he refuses. Please give him a chance first, as you seem to be doing. Stay the high road…
If the attic in the dormers is connected to the main attic, you would typically not install ridge vent as it would be at a lower elevation.
I could see a guy estimating 84 linear feet and ending up only installing 76. But estimating 84 and installing 40? Something doesn’t sound right with that. I think the initial thing to do would be to find out why the big difference. Then you may be able to determine what needs to be done next. Further, if he quoted you a specified amount for the 84 linear feet, did you pay that full amount or a pro rated amount for the actual 40 lf installed?
Finally, how big is your attic footprint? With some quick math, 40 lf of ridge vent should handle a 1500 SF footprint. 84 lf would handle more than a 3000 SF footprint. Perhaps the perceived ventilation problem you are now having is not due to smaller than promised amount of ridge vent but due to inadequate intake air flow through the soffit vents.
I paid for the job in full before I noticed the mistake. 84 feet was specified in the contract but there was no itemized cost for it. Since the ridge vent cost was rolled into the cost of the whole project I have no idea what I was over charged for the missing 44 feet.
The roofer admits to the mistake. (He has tried to argue that 40 feet should still be good enough but since I already paid for the entire 84 feet in the contract that didn’t get him anywhere.) I’ve already decided on, and purchased solar power vents to fix the ventilation problem.
So the question is basically:
Should I be paying him $60 to install my solar vents or should he just do it for free to make things right?
Or put another way:
Is his labor cost to install 2 solar vents (no wiring) roughly the same as the material and labor costs for the 44 feet of missing ridge vent?
$60 isn’t a ton of money but I really don’t like the idea of paying extra for him to correct his mistake. Before I tell him that though I wanted to see if other people think it’s reasonable for him to install the vents for free.
How about looking at it this way. Ridge vent costs around $6 per 4 ft section. So that is $1.50 per linear foot. Let’s say the cost to cut it in is $1 per lf. So you have $2.50 cost per linear foot, how about rounding up to $3 per linear foot cost? You were shorted 44 LF, so you’re talking around $132 you got shorted. Not a lot of money. If he comes out and does this other install for free, sounds like a wash.
However, you’re missing the point. I’m not sure installing these attic fans are needed or even the proper approach. If you don’t care about doing it right, then by all means, buy them and have this guy install them, have a happy. I seriously doubt they’re going to solve your perceived problem and will possibly make it worse. In other words, discover the root cause problem before you jump into a solution.
[quote=“Authentic_Dad”]How about looking at it this way. Ridge vent costs around $6 per 4 ft section. So that is $1.50 per linear foot. Let’s say the cost to cut it in is $1 per lf. So you have $2.50 cost per linear foot, how about rounding up to $3 per linear foot cost? You were shorted 44 LF, so you’re talking around $132 you got shorted. Not a lot of money. If he comes out and does this other install for free, sounds like a wash.
However, you’re missing the point. I’m not sure installing these attic fans are needed or even the proper approach. If you don’t care about doing it right, then by all means, buy them and have this guy install them, have a happy. I seriously doubt they’re going to solve your perceived problem and will possibly make it worse. In other words, discover the root cause problem before you jump into a solution.[/quote]
What kind of ridge vent are you putting on. My stuff is at nearly $12 a four foot section, then including the cap at nearly $50 a bundle for 28 feet.
It costs me nearly 20 dollars every four feet for ridgevent and cap.
[quote=“Authentic_Dad”]How about looking at it this way. Ridge vent costs around $6 per 4 ft section. So that is $1.50 per linear foot. Let’s say the cost to cut it in is $1 per lf. So you have $2.50 cost per linear foot, how about rounding up to $3 per linear foot cost? You were shorted 44 LF, so you’re talking around $132 you got shorted. Not a lot of money. If he comes out and does this other install for free, sounds like a wash.
However, you’re missing the point. I’m not sure installing these attic fans are needed or even the proper approach. If you don’t care about doing it right, then by all means, buy them and have this guy install them, have a happy. I seriously doubt they’re going to solve your perceived problem and will possibly make it worse. In other words, discover the root cause problem before you jump into a solution.[/quote]
What kind of ridge vent are you putting on. My stuff is at nearly $12 a four foot section, then including the cap at nearly $50 a bundle for 28 feet.
It costs me nearly 20 dollars every four feet for ridgevent and cap.[/quote]
$14 per 4’ here,But that is the High Point,Good Chit IMHO,A.D might be using CoraVent?
I was originally trying to keep this post business related rather than technical but since people are raising questions about my wanting to install fans…
Last year after I noticed there was a ventilation problem, I posted here looking for advice on the best way to fix it. I didn’t get many replies at the time.
This post includes pictures and a detailed description of the attic space. viewtopic.php?p=82958
I’m was planning on having one fan installed on the South face (this is above the bed rooms) and another on the West face of “section C” (this is above the garage and laundry room).
Since I haven’t had the work done yet I guess I’m still open to suggestions on other ways to improve the ventilation.
Maybe I did post in the wrong forum. I just assumed the Business forum was for roofing business owners.
Anyway, in my original post I was more concerned with how much he wants to charge me (a business decision) than with how to correct the ventilation. But as I said later, comments on either subject are appreciated.
Here’s a problem I see. The attic section you have labeled as “B” doesn’t appear to have any place for intake vents. If I am understanding your pictures correctly, the corner of the old hip roof ends at the garage, is this correct?
If that is the case, then it does not appear that section can be vented “by the book.” I believe you have the right idea with the fans, it is just making it work correctly. If I were doing it, I might suggest leaving the ridge vent on section “B”, putting your fans on sections “A” and “C” (on the rear of the hips) and letting the ridge vent on section “B” act as an intake source for the fan on “C”, if that makes any sense. At least that way you will get some air flow through “B” even if it’s technically not correct. You do want to remove the ridge vent from section “A”.
The cost. In my opinion that is contractor error. First, for not correctly analyzing the ventilation in the first place and second for charging you for items not used. If we had done the job we would simply send a couple guys back out to correct it and it wouldn’t cost you any additional. I would just call it an even trade for the items overcharged.
I would look at that $60 as an advertising cost. Is it worth charging this homeowner $60 to fix something I should have done correctly in the first place and take the risk of him not wanting to give me a positive referral to his neighbors? Or do I forgo the $60, correct the problem and leave knowing I have a customer who is happy with my service and will happily refer me to his neighbors? Knowing how lucrative referrals are, I believe that would be $60 well spent.
True story. I sat down with a homeowner once and gave them my presentation. At the end, the husband said they wanted to get three bids. He then stated that I was the only one they were going to get because when he asked around no one recommended any one but us.
Continuing the story. When our crew was doing the roof one of our men fell through the sheathing on the garage. He went through the garage ceiling which was drywall. The boss sent a couple guys out to fix the drywall at our expense. I do not have to worry about that homeowner giving us a bad reference.
dstew66,
Thanks for taking the time to read through my other post about my ventilation problems and offer your advice. You are correct. Section “B” has no intake vents. I’m glad that you think the fans might help. I’ve been measuring the temps I have in the attic now so I can see how how much difference the fans actually make. If there’s still a problems I’ll try to make some adjustments. Maybe add some air flow holes between sections A and B like was suggested in the other thread. (I know I need to watch out that I don’t short circuit the air flow.)
I’m also glad you agree with me that they should install the vents for free. I don’t know what this sales manager is thinking. Apparently the company owner chewed him out over this so then he called to yell at me over the phone. I guess because we didn’t get it resolved last Fall and he was surprised that I was bringing it up again. He later apologized. Since I made my original post here he emailed me to add that in addition to wanting to charge me $60, they are too busy to send anyone out to install the vents until late July or early August. I’m guessing they could do it sooner if they really wanted. He had said this is only a 1 hour job for 1 person. I think he’s hoping I’ll just go away.
The funny thing is I told this company from day one that I found them through Angie’s List and that I would post a review there when the job was done. I even reminded them that I was holding off on my review until the ventilation problem was fixed. That review will be out on the web for years. Do they think I won’t write about how they handled their mistake? They had an opportunity to do some damage control, and they blew it. (I will still leave a fair review. I was happy with some of what they did.)
As far as the crew is concerned, I’d call the guy back and tell him that if they aren’t back out by Wednesday to fix the problem, at no charge, you will be writing a negative review on Angie’s List and filing a complaint with the BBB. I wouldn’t spend time arguing with the guy, just make your statement and be done with it. If they don’t respond, follow through. From my understanding, Angie’s List would then make their own effort to mediate resolving the problem. From looking at your pictures, I’m wondering what the moron thought when he said 80 LF of ridge vent.
Your house is WAY too big for the maximum ridge vent you can mount on it. You need almost 100 feet of ridge vent. Your soffit intake area is ok, but you don’t have it all in the right place.
Bottom line: There is no reasonable way to make ridge vents work on your house unless you do something like pressurize the attic with a whole house fan, which opens up several other cans of worms.
Even bottomer line: Do NOT put powered fans on the roof with the ridge vents still there, period.
Here’s what I would do, if this was my own house:
Early in the morning, do the work inside the attic, which is…
Open up the joist bays between the old and new attic sections so air can travel freely (this should be done with a “sawzall” (less sawdust flying around in the attic), safety glasses, dust mask, and ear protection). Be careful not to run the cuts too high, so the cuts don’t hit the new roof deck. Running a sawzall down beside the old rafters should not be difficult, modulo hitting a few misplaced decking nails.
Get out of the attic. It’s too hot in there.
Pop the ridge vents and ridge cap off. When you’re prying (and you will be prying), try to always pry directly over a rafter, so you don’t crack the decking.
Run a strip of 7" or 9" starter strips down the ridge to cover the slots. Use a nail gun - it will be far easier than fighting the deck-bounce in the middle of the bays. Some roofers will say this strip is not necessary. Some will say to run sheet metal over it instead. I’m fine with the starter strips, myself, but not with leaving the vent gaps open.
Put new ridge cap on the stripped section. Lay a piece at each end and pop a chalk line between them on one side of the roof (when you’re done, you’ll be happy you did this). If using 3-tab shingles for ridge, you’ll need 2 bundles. If using special hip-and-ridge, you must look up the coverage per bundle/box. Put these on with a nail gun, for the same reason given above.
Add soffit vents on the attic section that does not have them, simply to balance the intake flow around the house. Technically (by the numbers) you do not need these vents. Aesthetically, you do need them. For max. efficiency, you need them. They are cheap, so put them on.
Mount those solar fans on the back side and a few feet inboard of the peak of the hips (or return them and get A/C electric fans at 20% of the cost, and use the extra money to have an electrician wire them up (see if he can tap off a second circuit for some lights up there, if you don’t have any; you’re going to be paying him top dollar to deal with the heat, so it may be better to have him come back i the fall/winter to do the lights).
For backup and peace-of-mind purposes (if you use house-wired fans) ask the electrician to re-wire the thermostats on the fans so that they are in parallel and each of them runs both fans. This way, both fans will always come on together (if they are on a private circuit, this should be no problem) and if a thermostat fails, there is a backup. Downside: you will likely never know the first 'stat failed until the second one also fails.
That is the work that needs to be done to properly ventilate your attic. Who pays for it and who does the work are separate questions. Personally, I would press the roofer, hard, to do (provide labor for) all of this work. Offer to pay for the materials ($50-$70, probably) and let him supply all the labor. Whoever wrote up that contract for 84’ of ridge vent shouldn’t be selling roofs, in my opinion. (and you should have questioned it immediately, in my opinion, but I’m assuming a lot about what you knew/understood back at that time - you clearly know enough now to catch something like this).
Make sure your soffit vents exceed your ridge vent. (you need to also calculate for the loss of flow from the screen covering the soffit vent) Adequate soffit ventilation is far more important than having extra fans on the roof. Remember, ridge vents work by convection as the hot air rises it escapes out of the top, atmospheric pressure pushes outside air into the soffit vents.
I sent another email to the roofer on Sunday saying that I didn’t want to pay anything and I thought they should install my vents for free. I included a link to this thread so he could see that others thought it was a reasonable request. On Tuesday he sent out a guy and they were installed at no charge.
Yesterday, before the install, it was about 93 outside and 138 in the house attic. Today it’s 96 and the house attic maxed out at 120. It’s a little hazier today and there’s a little bit more of a breeze so it’s not a perfect comparison. But it’s still encouraging. (I don’t know what’s going on with the garage attic because I accidentally knocked the batteries out of the remote sensor and it lost sync with the display.)
neville,
I was kicking myself that I didn’t catch the mistakes before they did the work. This is my first house and I had only been in it a few months before I had the roof done. I wasn’t too familiar with the layout of the attic back then. I still should have caught the 84 feet mistake but I missed it. I thought I did my homework when I picked the roofing company (well reviewed on Angie’s list, had been in business for 10 years with 0 Better Business Bureau complaints and the sales guy made a good impression during the consult). I’ve done a lot of reading about ventilation since then.
[quote=“ehd”]Thanks for the advice everyone. I have an update.
I sent another email to the roofer on Sunday saying that I didn’t want to pay anything and I thought they should install my vents for free. I included a link to this thread so he could see that others thought it was a reasonable request. On Tuesday he sent out a guy and they were installed at no charge. [/quote]
ehd,
Now that you have the solar fans installed on the “standalone” sections of the attic, do NOT follow my advice about opening up the passages between the attics, UNLESS you go ahead and remove the ridge vents (which is still my recommendation, as it would be a very inexpensive fix - you can do it yourself for about $40). And if you leave the attic sections separated, it will be even MORE important that you install soffit vents on the section where they are missing.
I am about to replace a roof that was put on over an attic-less section that had insulation bats between the vaulted ceiling and the roof (thus, no air flow at all). The shingles have nice little (popped) blisters on them. I’m very glad that you got your solar vents installed for free, but I really believe you still need to address the total ventilation situation.
